gearbox problems

This is my first post here so I hope I'm putting it in the right place.

I'm looking for advice about my 2001 Symbol gearbox - and maintenance in general.  Apologies for long post:

I had a reconditioned gearbox and new clutch fitted in Oct 2015 at Glos Road Gearboxes in Bristol following on-going gearbox stiffness (having had the recommended scuttle run checked, changed oil etc).  Cost was about £1600.  The new gearbox was very stiff but I was told that they take a while to bed in and it would become smoother after some hundreds of miles.  For domestic reasons I've done v little mileage over the last couple of years and it's been painful driving as I have weakness in my left arm. This year I have really noticed the gearbox is finally smooth and much easier to drive - hooray!  But I have a scraping from 4th to 3rd gear...  Took back to gearbox centre yesterday and was advised that it's either a synchro gone between 4th and 3rd - cost £550 + VAT - or water in gearbox again - cost £1500 + VAT (poss + fitting) for another new gearbox.  I questioned whether this is normal for a gearbox to fail after less that 3 years and only 3,000 miles and was told it's very common to get gearbox problems in these vans and that, in addition to the potential for rainwater coming off the windscreen draining into the gearbox, there is also an issue with condensation building up in the gearbox when vans are left sitting for months over the winter and hence GRG advise everyone to change their oil every year.  I don't remember ever hearing this before and I didn't change my oil last year because my local garage said it wasn't necessary to do a service as I had done so few miles (is this even covered in a service??)..  Even if it's "only" the synchro, I was told that this can happen with just one bad gear change...

This comes just weeks after lots of problems with the van battery - I replaced that about 2 years ago but the RAC wouldn't honour the warranty when it failed this Spring because I hadn't read the small print about a minimum annual mileage.  I then went through umpteen garages and mechanics trying to understand what was necessary to stop a battery dying over winter and how to find a parasitic drain on the system (which the RAC also failed to diagnose) - I got a different answer from everyone and ended up paying 2 garages to fix the problem and replace the battery before it was solved.

Depressed and despondent and not sure what or who to believe any more.  I can't afford to keep changing the gearbox every 3 years and it seems ridiculous that this is commonplace!  But am I being unrealistic and there's some sort of "knowledge" that camper van owners are supposed to have to help prevent all these expensive repairs that I just haven't found yet?  

I am at the point of giving up owning a camper van and would appreciate some advice please on which way to turn.

Many thanks

A recon gearbox shouldn't fail in less than three years, my 21 year old Symphony still has its original gearbox and as far as I'm aware original oil, ive never changed it, it had the scuttle mod done years ago however.
Personally i would be down to trading standards.
Your reconditioned gearbox has to be "fit for purpose", it obviously is not.
Im sure you will get more advice shortly.

Dave

Thanks Dave.

Catperson,

I'm sorry to hear of your problems - they're clearly affecting your enjoyment of what should be a fine camper.

It might be worth investigating whether the cables and/or other elements of the gear selection system outside of the box are contributing to the stiffness. Certainly in the Mk2 Boxer arrangement (2002 - 2006) there are parts of the mechanism where lubrication can get washed-out resulting in stiffness of operation. Also cable ends can become corroded and stiff particularly at the gearbox end where the protective boots are prone to failure over time. I recently provided details of this in another posting entitled something like "Can't select reverse".

I will try to find photos of the Mk1 arrangement from my vehicle pre-update. However before shelling-out for more major gearbox work I would certainly consider disconnecting the cables at the box end to check the stiffness of the gearbox and the mechanism independently.

Hope this helps…. and don't give-up on van ownership yet!

Bartfarst

A few more thoughts....

Water ingress was a serious problem with these gearboxes in the early years. Also as many are aware there were multiple configurations of drain hose from the heater plenum chamber in the early years, none of which really nailed the problem: there are multiple postings on this forum relating to this topic. I think AS panel van conversions also suffered particularly badly as, unlike your average 'white van', all water landing on the roof is directed down the windscreen and either onto the battery at one side, or into the heater plenum chamber and down the pipe onto the gearbox on the other.

There were also different gearbox arrangements too: the very early ones had a dipstick and, I think, a breather. I had my fair share of problems too. In fact in the first year (1996) the local Peugeot main dealer changed (or said he changed) the gearbox three times. But by 2001 the manufacturer should have nailed the problem.

Crunching 3 - 4: is that when going up or down in gear, or both I wonder? Unfortunately that does sound like a synchro issue unless, that is, your clutch is badly adjusted, but then you might have problems with the other gears too. Is you clutch bite point high, medium or on the carpet I wonder?

Bartfarst

@Bartfarst - thanks so much for your thoughts.  I really appreciate any input on this as I don't know which way to go at the moment.  Chatted to a friend today who advised selling: "do you really need this stress in your life?!" but at the same time I know my happy places have been via my van...

I only feel the current gearbox problem is going down from 4th to 3rd.  I think that the clutch bite point is high as I get an ache in my foot from driving for a long time.  The clutch was replaced at same time as gearbox by the same company.  

It's been many years since I did car mechanics and now I'm really not in a position to start again so I am completely dependent on garage advice, with all it's contradictions....  So it makes me wonder, am I being naive in thinking I can have a camper van without being able to learn all about these issues and doing DIY mechanics??  I genuinely don't know whether I have been singularly unlucky or naive.    Or (tbh) am I being fobbed off with nonsense because I am a woman?  For example, if it's a synchro issue, could I really have damaged that in one bad gear change, as GRG told me - I have no idea whether this is true or not?!

Catperson,

I can feel for you with your dilemma. Our vans are just great, when they work, but an absolute pain when they don't. And when you're reliant upon the judgement of others who might have an interest in taking money then it's doubly difficult.

Selling-up is clearly an option, but is there any guarantee that a newer and more expensive van would give you fewer problems? I experienced the greatest number of major issues in the early years when the van was new, accepting that that was 22 or more years ago now. These vans are not without their issues - that's what keeps us so exercised on this great forum - so my suspicion is that some level of issues on a used or even new van will be a given, so best to share them and get to know the issues. Then, if necessary, you can go to a dealer armed with a greater degree of knowledge. The problem is finding that dealer of course: they are increasingly few and far between. Perhaps if you could be more specific in stating your location then members might have some recommendations, or be willing to assist you directly? Just a thought. BTW if you're passing through the Midlands (specifically Redditch) I'd willingly take a look at your van for you and give you as much advice as I can.

Clutch bite at the top end infers that you should be able to get full disengagement when the pedal is in the carpet. BTW it's best to check whether additional carpet or mats are restricting full travel. However, assuming that your mechanism has become acceptably loose and manageable, having a scrunch from 4 to 3 may be something you could actually live with - 1 to 2 was bad for me for years and I came to live with it - and you could try double declutching although, for a modern 'box, this shouldn't be necessary.

Hope this helps.

Bartfarst

I think they're fobbing you off with 'one bad gear change'. If this was the case garages would be full of driving school cars.
I taught my wife and kids to drive in several different cars, and the many crunches and grindings could be heard a street away. Not ideal I know, but no lasting damage was done. 
Delivery vans, which are basically what we all drive, will be built to be even more idiot driver proof.
Al.

Another issue might be that the specification of the recommended gearbox oil was changed by Peugeot some time ago.

The newer spec oil has been reported by many different sources to make the gearbox stiff to operate.

Many people have also said that dealers and mechanics just assume that the current spec is OK when it might not be.

When I did my oil change on our 1995 x230 5 speed box (the one with the dipstick) I was lucky in that our local Peugeot dealer had both spec oils in stock. EDIT: I mis-remembered this, we got the oil from Halfords.
Changing the oil for the correct spec and lubricating the cable ends and levers made a huge difference to our sluggish changes.

I'll try to find a link to the original thread and post it here.

EDIT:

Here

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@Bartfarst (sorry don't know how to link properly yet!) - thanks this does help.  If I sell now, it won't be to buy a newer one, this will be giving up.  One of the reasons I've hung on through all (numerous - this really was the short version of long story!) problems so far is knowing that, when one buys second hand (or possibly even new too), there will be snags to fix and maybe I've fixed the major ones now this van.  Trying to change up could be just a whole new heap of problems..  I appreciate you saying that this problem may just be liveable with and may not cause further issue - I picked up the double de-clutch suggestion from reading other posts and it very least gives me something to say to potential buyers!  I'm on the edge of Bristol btw. So not very close but many thanks for offer to look at van.

This is my second van btw - my first was an F reg Talbot Express who I loved but traded in for power-steering and spare parts that didn't have to be sourced from scrap yards.

@bikeralw - yes! thanks.  I think what I'm being told is that many of the problems come though from being laid up over winter, which delivery vans aren't - so I don't know if that's genuine or not?!

@meanchris - thanks for the reminder re oil choice.  I recall this from before gearbox change when I paid for an oil change on last gearbox in attempt to try and fix that one.  I did think to ask my local garage to change the oil as a relatively cheap fix - it did cost about £90 last time though, plus extra for greasing, so keep wondering when I am throwing good money after bad as it didn't help at all last time...

Catperson-
My new old stock gearbox fitted by M&W Autos (in Wisbech) late last year is working better than new, Maurice insisted on a 1000 mile oil change and the 1st lot came out grey !
The cost was £2000 inc. new clutch assembly and labour but worth every penny.
This gearbox issue is starting to affect Peugeot and Citroen cars of the same age apparently.
Hope the advice on here is helpful.
Terry

newterry - many thanks, I rally appreciate hear other people's opinions and experiences.

I took the van to my local garage today and they test-drove it.   They confirm they think the 3rd synchro is gone and they don't think it should fail in only 3,000 miles.   They clearly have a very poor opinion of Glos Road Gearboxes and they dismissed the suggestions that a person could damage a synchro in one bad gear change, that condensation on the gearbox can cause water ingress or that the oil needs to be changed on an annual basis.  While I was at the garage another gearbox specialist (who I didn't even know existed!) arrived and I asked their mechanic too and he also dismissed all those suggestions.

The combined views of everyone I've heard from is that the gearbox work shouldn't have failed so quickly.  Now I have to work out what to do - if I can prove that the work was not fit for purpose I could take it to the small claims court.

I think you have a very good case, good luck.

Dave

Thanks Dave - I've just spoked to Citizens Advice (starting point to Trading Standards) and they've advised what I need to do next, which is to find an independent person in the trade who will go in writing to say that "on the balance of probability" the gearbox was faulty as it should reasonably be expected to last longer than this.

Just a heads up- Maurice at MW says that new synchros are now scarcer than the proverbial hens teeth even from his trusted Italian supplier.
When he took my 're-engineered' original gearbox apart it was full of gunge from the previous botch.
I would suggest that the 'reconditioned' box just had the synchros (badly) welded like mine were 1st time round. Finding some expert opinion without taking it apart could be tricky. 
It's a pity you're so far away from Maurice at Wisbech.
We all feel for you.
Terry

thank you Terry.  could you just explain this a bit more please?  does this mean that reconditioned boxes are all or mostly likely badly welded??

In the absence of new spare parts there maybe a possibility of poor 'reconditioning' which may include sub standard welding of components such as synchros.
I'm choosing my words carefully as I'm not a technical expert.
The original intention was that Maurice at MW in Wisbech would re-build my gearbox from new parts.
He scoured his suppliers for parts including synchros and couldn't find enough parts for a re-build hence the lucky find of one of the last new old stock gearboxes in the country.
There are 2 or maybe 3 types of gearboxes used on Boxers of our age and it depends on your vin which was used.
I think I can still get your Sevel build notes with your vin which will specifiy the gearbox used in your specific van which needs to be matched against what was fitted as a recon.
If you'd like to send over your vin on a pm with an e-mail address I'll see what I can find.
This is an issue which will loom larger as our vans get older.
Terry

Terry - thanks again, this is helpful.  I used to have an older camper van (F reg Talbot Express Autosleeper conversion) and traded it in when parts became too difficult (for me) to find so its interesting to know that this age van be on the same cusp?  If so, this suggests this maybe an ongoing problem??  

I have no idea of my vin but will check tomorrow.  Appreciate the support.

V5 or plate/sticker on the slam panel under the bonnet.

I'm sorry I didn't pick this up earlier- I've been distracted recently by my new 'travel companion' - long story for another time !!!
Terry

Travel companion = dog??

Have you seen these synchro hubs on Ebay??

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Any good??

You need to check that this item matches your vin. number as they used morecthan one gearbox on the production line.
Btw my new travel companion was the result of a blind date on my return from Scotland and we've been a couple ever since!
There's hope for all us solo oldies!!

The 3rd/4th syncro on our gearbox went last year. The van was only 3 years old at the time so like you we were very upset
We had only had the van a year and luckily the RAC warranty covered it as Peugeot didnt want to know.
It still bothers me that the gearbox isnt expected to last. We had a Ford Transit Duetto before and it still had the original 20 year oĺd gearbox in it when we traded her in.

Possibly slightly off topic, but will someone tell me which bits of the synchro were welded?
Got me a bit flummoxed

Framl

Folks - apologies for hijacking the thread, tho' the query is related...

My Peugout Boxer Symbol 2.0L petrol, 2000, gearbox could probably do with an oil change.

What grade oil should I be buying for it?

TIA