Gear Box Repairs

Hi everyone,

As previously mentioned, our 1995 Symphony has been suffering from lack of syncro-mesh on 2nd gear for over a year, and despite becoming moderately good at the black art of double de-clutching we decided to bite the bullet and have it repaired.
The first shock was the phone call from the gearbox specialist that said the box was generally so worn (it's done 78K) that it would be better to have a recon one fitted. Well, at some point I guess you have to trust the experts, (well we do anyway!) and so on collection we were faced with a bill of £1,500.00! Swallowing hard (and trusting to plastic!) we paid up and drove home.
Next day there was a big patch of ugly oil underneath, where no oil had dripped before, and so we duly returned "Alice" to the garage. They duly dropped the gearbox again, and pronounced that it was the main engine oil seal that was leaking, and more cost was down to us.
We hopefully collect again tomorrow, two very much poorer motor home owners!

A couple of things strike me. The specialist has a good local reputation and seems to run a very tidy and efficient business, so were we just unlucky in our experience. Secondly, there were a couple of other motor homes going through the workshops, and when I commented the mechanic said that gearbox problems were very common, even at low milages, especially with some of the larger coach builts, which use the same chassis and drive train as van conversions but are much more heavily loaded and therefore under greater stress. He also said that owners drive them like cars, what ever that might mean! and that I was lucky to have got to 78K miles, as most are worn by 30-40K miles.

All very strange stuff, but difficult to counter from a very limited knowledge base.

Any thoughts?

regards

Jeff and Di

Very sorry to hear of your series of issues.

Boxer had a high failure rate of gearboxes in the early years, particularly after the infamous occurences of water ingress. Perhaps it is this to which your 'specialist' is referring. As for "driving them like a car" if that means thrashing them around at high speed then compare our use to your regular "white van man" for whom these were designed. Which is worse for the gearbox? Fifth gear lubrication failure has also been an issue, generally induced by tootling around at low engine speed, perhaps more like your average motorhome driver.

I have to say that I'm concerned by the oil leak and the suggestion that this relates to the engine oil seal. There's just too much coincidence here. Was the oil gearbox or engine oil I wonder? The former is usually cleaner and smells a bit like cat pee if you've still got any on a drip tray or drive. However any mechanic worth his salt would see a leaking crankshaft oil seal whilst the gearbox was off and advise you of this defect. For this to suddenly start leaking does not ring true with me. Ask to see the oil seal removed, measure the bore and outside diameter and post here please.

In my opinion it is far more likely that the replacement gearbox has a leaking input shaft seal or driveshaft seal. The latter seals can also be damaged when the driveshafts are inserted.

A further point: has the garage taken the opportunity to change the clutch whilst the gearbox is off, and by this I mean all three elements: clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing? Again, this would be highly recommended and natural for your average mechanic in the know.

Hoping this helps.

Bartfarst

I concur with the above.
If the rear main engine oil seal was leaking it would have been noticed before and certainly when the gearbox was removed.

A cautionary tale for all really, when you are having a gearbox change, get the clutch and rear main seal done at the same time. For the extra cost it's money well spent!

PB

Mmm …. Something smells “Fishy” here to me ……. And I don’t mean the “Cats Pee” oil …....

Brian

This should have been repaired free of charge irispective of whether it was the gearbox seal or the rear crankshaft seal, if gearbox seal they fitted a faulty box if engine seal they should have seen it and advised you. You should query the charge for additional work.

Brian2

Never mind cat pee. I smell a rat.

Whisky.

Thanks for the feedback folks.
The garage have phoned to say our motor home is ready for collection, and armmed with much good advice I'm prepared to do battle over the proposed additional charges.
I'll let you know the outcome!

Jeff

Hi again everyone,

Well, armed with the advice offered I went back to collect "Alice" and was ready for a bit of aggro. Trouble was, they couldn't have been more fair!
They charged me but one hours labour, which would have covered replacing the crank shaft seal as part of the original job, and also the fitting of a new starter motor, which I had asked them to do as an extra.
They had also repositioned the rain water drain pipe to stop it running over the gearbox. This was something early Boxers were prone to, and which I'd forgotten to ask, but which they seemed to know about.

So, as far as I can see, that was a good result, and we're off today for a two week trip along the south coast. Lets hope all our troubles are behind us.
As always, thanks everyone for your interest and help...we are not alone!

Jeff and Di

Hi Jeff & Di,
Glad to hear that the firm were so helpfull, and that they did accept responsibility for the oil leak, pity they didnt change the crankshaft oil seal as a matter of course when it was in the first time, it would have saved them a lot of unnecessary work. these seals are prone to leak when disturbed.

Brian2

Hi Jeff & Di.

Really pleased that you got it sorted out to your satisfaction. Sounds like the guy has been fair in dealing with it.

Well done to you and him. Enjoy your break away.

Whisky.

Hi Jeff & Di.

Result .......

Brian

Excellent result.....albeit a bit of inconvenience!

They obviously knew that they had 'screwed up '.

PB

Without putting a damper on a result - I too am worried about this outcome.

There would be no need to disturb the crankshaft seal as it is behind the flywheel (Brian2) but a leak would be obvious to the trained eye and you should've been advised at the time, before the "new" 'box was fitted.

It seems more than coincidence that the leak appeared after major gearbox work and fitting a new gearbox would NOT make the crankshaft oil seal leak. My question now is - IF the crankshaft seal was leaking (which I doubt) then have they look to see the reason for it's sudden failure? My hunch goes that the engine breather system may have been disturbed during repairs - if the breather pipe is pinched or kinked then the crankshaft oil seal will pi$$ out oil - no changing of the seal will cure the problem - the breather system needs to be unobstructed.

So to sum up (difficult from remote diagnosis), the crankshaft seal MAY have been the problem caused by an engine breather problem exasperated by the repairs - OR the front oil seal in the "new" gearbox has been faulty

Hi Jeff and Di,
I must agree with Alan on the subject of the engine breather, something I had not thought of, keep an eye out for leaks for the naxt few weeks.

Brian2

Jeff and Di,

Glad it's sorted, but I also agree with dandywarhol. Nothing generally happens for no reason, and I remain concerned by the series of events. Proceed on amber for now, and if your trip involves passage through The Midlands (who goes to Birmingham for their holidays?) then you're welcome to call in 'chez Bartfarst' for an evening's second opinion.

Bartfarst

Hi again everyone,

Thanks for the continued feedback, even if I didn't really understand about breather pipes! Sorry for the delay in reply, we've just come back from an extended holiday in Alice, where we covered nearly 900 miles.
Pleased to report that during this time there was no sign of an oil leak, so can we begin to presume that all is now well?
In response to a comment that the crankshaft oil seal should not have been disturbed during a gearbox change as it's behind the flywheel, I note from the repairer invoice that the flywheel was removed and re-faced as part of the clutch replacement. Does that alter things?

Anyway, we hope that all now continues well, as we're skint!

Many thanks

Jeff and Di

Removing the flywheel shouldn't have disturbed the crankshaft seal but then it seems that it may have done, or else just a coincidence.
Maybe the vibrations from the mechanics air ratchet unsettled it!
Glad it's now sorted.

PB