ford transit autosleeper duetto 1996.

Hi everyone.
First of all Happy New year to all.

I have a problem with the brakes, namely brake judder through brake pedal, front disc's and brake pads replaced less than 100 miles ago, been told that rear brake drums have been skimmed and new shoes fitted, but problem still exists. Years ago I had an old car with the same problems drums skimmed new shoes, but the problem still existed, resulting fitting new drums all round and shoes, would this apply now to my duetto. any ideas.

hi,

my transit service van had the same problem after the rear wheels were taken off during a service. the brake drums do not locate on a register and have to be carefully centralized when the wheels are refitted,

regards,
chris

I have no personal experience of this problem, but have been told that it is usually due to the rear drums needing to be skimmed. I would have them checked for circularity as a first step.

chrisvesey wrote:hi,

my transit service van had the same problem after the rear wheels were taken off during a service. the brake drums do not locate on a register and have to be  carefully centralized when the wheels are refitted,

regards,
chris

Hi Chris.

Many thanks Chris, I would have thought that the supposed garage that dealt with this problem should have known about fitting the brake drums correctly, apparently not it would seem. when I mentioned that the rear brakes were the possible cause of the judder felt through the brake peddle, they insisted that the drums were skimmed and new shoes fitted, but did not mention about the drums having to be centralized.

regards Brian

Hi Sposbe.

Many thanks for reply. your thoughts are exactly what was carried out but problem still existed.
 

regards Brian [6foot]

hi,
it would seem that not every mechanic is aware of this possible problem, worth checking though,
regards,

chris

Hi Chris

Will do this tomorrow, will let you know of the outcome. young lads who work there probably never come across

Brian.

I have had a Duetto on a Transit MK5 and have not come across this problem of the rear drums requiring to be 'centralised'. I have had the drums off on several occasions and they simply relocated on the 5 studs like any other drum that I have worked on. Have I been lucky, or are there different types?

Spospe wrote:I have had a Duetto on a Transit MK5 and have not come across this problem of the rear drums requiring to be 'centralised'. I have had the drums off on several occasions and they simply relocated on the 5 studs like any other drum that I have worked on. Have I been lucky, or are there different types?

Same here - I owned a '99 Mk5 based A-S and did quite a lot of work on the rear brakes, and I never had to do anything other than put the drums back on! The people who wrote the Haynes manual did not seem to be aware of any need to centralise them, nor did there seem to be any way to do so. I guess there must have been differences on the older models?

I know that when the earlier Transits had this problem of brake pedal judder it was always the rear drums.
I seem to remember that they were held in place with countersunk screws?
Although you would think that the wheel would hold the drum in place, if those screws were missing or loose, then a judder would occur being felt at the pedal.
I would be inclined to take a wheel off first and have a look.

PB

Hi All.

Will try all the suggestions when I can get down on the farm, at the moment it's touch and go due to the weather.

many thanks to you all
brian

Hi 6foot.

We have a 1994 mk4 Duetto and I have had the back brakes off several times and have never had problems.
Will soon need to replace the front discs and the pads because of wear of the discs.
I have worked on quite a few vehicles over the years and in my experience brake pedal judder is mostly always caused by run out of the front discs.
As yours have been replaced very recently I believe it could be the mating surfaces of the disc and hub may not have been cleaned properly when they were fitted.This can be checked but you would need a dial gauge.
Were the discs the fitted a good quality make as there are poor quality ones out there.
I am not a mechanic but have a lot of practical experience but have never heard of needing to centralise brake drums only is so much of centralising the brake shoes to let the drum go on.

Hope this maybe of some help.

TONYS49 wrote:never heard of needing to centralise brake drums only is so much of centralising the brake shoes to let the drum go on.

Yes, that sounds familiar - I can recall having to fiddle with the self-adjusting mechanism to get the shoes in the right place or the drum won't go on. Incidentally I previously owned a Mk2 Transit for many years, and that ~did~ have a countersunk machine screw holding the drum in place but, again, this did not serve to "centralise" the drum.

As TonyS49 says, I'd suspect the front discs to be the cause, not the drums.

All hydraulic sls drum brakes are self centralising anyway, due to having two pistons in the same bore. This automatically centralises the shoes.

I have to agree with Tony, if the gunge hasn't been cleaned off the mating surfaces when the discs were fitted, it would give the same symptoms of a warped disc. A dial gauge will tell you if there is runout on the disc(s).

Frank

I also had the brake judder problem on our 96 Duetto. The front discs and pads were changed under warranty but the problem persisted. The rear drums were skimmed and this improved things a bit but I wasn't happy with it. I checked the drums myself and it looked as if one of them had been skimmed off centre. I found a supplier on line and had a new drum delivered for just under £30 including postage (A bargain). Problem solved.
Previous to fitting this new drum I had noticed that if I pulled the handbrake on very slightly when driving, the juddering disappeared. Strange, but at least it confirmed the problem was with the drums.
Regards

Blossom wrote:
Previous to fitting this new drum I had noticed that if I pulled the handbrake on very slightly when driving, the juddering disappeared. Strange, but at least it confirmed the problem was with the drums.

Yes, that sounds a good test.

PB

Hi everyone,
 who has sent me there solutions regarding brake judder, first the front disc's were genuine ones along with new pads, the area where the disc's mate to the hub were cleaned and any rust debri dirt etc was cleaned with wire brush and emery cloth, still problem was there but not as bad, rear drums, so I have been told were skimmed and new shoes fitted, I did try putting slight pressure on hand brake whilst travelling about 30 mph and the juddering was not so bad. I did an emergency stop from about 50mph the duetto pulled up very quickly but neither the front or back locked up, mind you I didn't come to a complete stand still, So I think it may end up with new drums and new brake shoes, by doing this I hope that the problem will be solved. As a point of interest one of the driver/mechanics of our local car racing club said that it was false economy to try and skim drums as new ones are available for around £30,00 and skimming cannot always be accurate.

I've had several transit vans & changed discs & drums on all of them, & NEVER experienced any vibrations after, AND, on one of them, there were NO countersunk screws on the rear drums, a 'previous' must have forgotten them!!

BTW, no-one has mentioned the fact that re-skimmed drums SHOULD have an equivalent packer sheet fitted under the friction lining to maintain operating specs.

I don't 'think' this, I KNOW it as I used to work as a fitter at Ferrodo, the manufacturers of friction linings, brakes, bands & clutches etc. & we HAD to remove the linings, & re-rivet them with the packer to match any skimming we'd done.
No need to pack pads on disc brakes as each pad is pressed onto the disc ( flat to flat )
but a drum is a 'fixed' diameter, & its shoe is made to the same to ensure a perfect 100% contact, so, if a drum is skimmed, even 20 thou will result in only the crown of shoe contacts the drum, but I've never heard of any garages or workshops doing this however.

Now there's food for thought! not something I would have thought of but it's obvious when you stop to think   

Frank

When you buy a used vehicle, how would you know if the drums had ever been skimmed and therefore you would buy standard brake shoes. Nowadays of course you rarely see riveted shoe linings, they are all bonded, so how could you fit a spacer.

Well Modelman,

I must admit that the thought of brake shoes have to be modified to fit the skimmed drum never occurred to me, so what I am going to have a go at is to cover the brake linings with a white emulsion and put the drums on and rotate the drum with the hand brake slightly on so that the drum can be turned by hand and see if there is a high spot on the linings if there is this may be the answer. (New drums and New Linings that correspond with each other.) I don't know if the linings that are on there are riveted or bonded.

Many thanks  Brian (6foot)

6foot wrote:Well Modelman,
so what I am going to have a go at is to cover the brake linings with a white emulsion and put the drums on and rotate the drum with the hand brake slightly on so that the drum can be turned by hand and see if there is a high spot on the linings

Many thanks  Brian (6foot)

Chalk (NOT crayon) is better, done this many times setting up bike tls front brakes.

Frank

Paulmold wrote:When you buy a used vehicle, how would you know if the drums had ever been skimmed and therefore you would buy standard brake shoes. Nowadays of course you rarely see riveted shoe linings, they are all bonded, so how could you fit a spacer.

For the bonded shoes, we had a selection of oversize linings that could be bonded on, BUT, as you correctly state, who would know in the future???

Also, it was in the 60's & it may not be done nowadays.

Had a problem of brake judder felt through the foot pedal on my Transit.Went for a test drive with my local garage owner in the passenger seat when he applied the hand brake, on came the vibration ,Judder.Cure = two sets of new shoes and brake drums.I am of the opinion if you do one side you do both together ,otherwise the other one will go next.Actually one drum had gone oval.Total cost approx £ 100 ,satisfaction job done.