New Fairfrord on the Fiat Ducato Automatic

The attached spreadsheet might be of interest to some van owners - I have been doing a few calculations based on the (as far as I can find out) A/S 2020 declared brochure weights;- 

Auto Sleeper Kingham Weights (The Fairford has a declared Miro of 3111)		User Payload Remaining
Max Permissable payload	3500
A/S (2020) declared MiRO	3102	398
Premium Pack	35	363
Winter Pack	5	358
Essential Habitation Eqpt	10	348
Hab Air Con	30	318
Auto Box	50	268
Media Pack?	16	252
Passanger	75	177
Water Tank full	69	108
Fuel tank filled (+10%)	9	99
Does not include any allowance for Gas which should be about an extra 25Kg!
Total Weight used =	3401

Hi folks,
To address Paul Mold and bolero boy's queries on Ih weights, the MIRO on my Ih RL630 van (I'm ex Kemereton XL so feel I can still contribute on the AS forum) is: MIRO 2185kg; and axles weights at 2100 and 2400kg respectively. This is on the Ducato Maxi heavy chassis with a 180bhp motor and manual transmission. For interest.

Miro 2185 ???

justlooking wrote:Hi folks,
To address Paul Mold and bolero boy's queries on Ih weights, the MIRO on my Ih RL630 van (I'm ex Kemereton XL so feel I can still contribute on the AS forum) is: MIRO 2185kg; and axles weights at 2100 and 2400kg respectively. This is on the Ducato Maxi heavy chassis with a 180bhp motor and manual transmission. For interest.

Are you sure?  That doesn't sound right.  When I looked at them the MIRO was about 3000kg - ie. about 500Kg payload (or less if you added loads of their options).

The kerb weight of the empty van (120bhp model) seems to be around 2055kg.

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justlooking wrote:Hi folks,
To address Paul Mold and bolero boy's queries on Ih weights, the MIRO on my Ih RL630 van (I'm ex Kemereton XL so feel I can still contribute on the AS forum) is: MIRO 2185kg; and axles weights at 2100 and 2400kg respectively. This is on the Ducato Maxi heavy chassis with a 180bhp motor and manual transmission. For interest.

Im sure you mean a MIRO of 3185...so a payload of 315kg...seems about right, this will not be a light van..
the figures below are from the IH website and cites MAX weight of 3500kg. the Maxi Chassis is a must and comfirmed by the above post....perhaps the van is run (with no payload) at 3500kg...what does your plate say?

[size=47]Key Weights & Measures[/size]

Max. Towable Weight (Braked)	3000KG
Max. Payload	Dependent On Specification and Options Fitted
Fuel Tank 75Ltr	75 Litres
AdBlue Tank	19 Litres
Fresh Water Tank	67 Litres
Waste Tank	60 Litres
Gas Tank	25 Litres
Double Bed	193cm x 185cm
Single Bed	193cm x 66cm
Weight	3500KG
Gross Vehicle Weight

this from a Practical Motorhome review which clearly show the heavy axle alloys yet the text mentions 3500kg max weight??
....and a payload of 560kg, in your dreams....

[size=33]Technical Specifications

[/size]

Payload	560 kg
MTPLM	3500 kg
Shipping Length	6.36 m
Width	2.05 m
Engine Size	3000 cc

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bolero boy wrote:

justlooking wrote:Hi folks,
To address Paul Mold and bolero boy's queries on Ih weights, the MIRO on my Ih RL630 van (I'm ex Kemereton XL so feel I can still contribute on the AS forum) is: MIRO 2185kg; and axles weights at 2100 and 2400kg respectively. This is on the Ducato Maxi heavy chassis with a 180bhp motor and manual transmission. For interest.

Im sure you mean a MIRO of 3185...so a payload of 315kg...seems about right, this will not be a light van..
the figures below are from the IH website and cites MAX weight of 3500kg. the Maxi Chassis is a must and comfirmed by the above post....perhaps the van is run (with no payload) at 3500kg...what does your plate say?

[size=47]Key Weights & Measures[/size]

Max. Towable Weight (Braked)	3000KG
Max. Payload	Dependent On Specification and Options Fitted
Fuel Tank 75Ltr	75 Litres
AdBlue Tank	19 Litres
Fresh Water Tank	67 Litres
Waste Tank	60 Litres
Gas Tank	25 Litres
Double Bed	193cm x 185cm
Single Bed	193cm x 66cm
Weight	3500KG
Gross Vehicle Weight

my kemerton xl is 3054

the rl630 has a pay load of 560

Glyne, yes these are the numbers from the website, i agree...as i posted above.
however with a MIRO of 3054 the Kemerton has a 'payload' of 446kg at 3500kg.
can you see the IH having 114kg more payload (at a MIRO of 2940kg)? i certainly cant. the IH has the look and feel of a pretty substantial van.
perhaps JUSTLOOKING has weighed his van, all up?
do you know what yours weighs, fully loaded.
ill wager its far more than 3500kg. i know you have the heavy chassis, so not an issue, but it would show how difficult it is for non C1 drivers to run at the lower weight.
as above, it would be interesting to see Justlooking's weight plate...we know the axle weights but what do IH state as the MTPLM....3500 or something approaching 4-4.5t?
bearing in mind the comments above referencing tiny load margins on this size of van, i wouldn't be taking 560kg payload as Gospel in a XLWB van, id want it weighed.

Tigger-tim wrote:The kerb weight of the empty van (120bhp model) seems to be around 2055kg.

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in theory, this could lead to a MIRO of 2185kg....add driver and fuel....
however, these numbers are for an unconverted van....ie White Van Man...no furniture or equipment. no need for a heavy chassis, here.
we need to see JL's weight plate to understand what MTPLM IH run at. i cant see IH XLWB vans being any more viable at 3.5t than AS'..

I was looking at buying an IH before ordering the AS, when you look at the vans that they have for sale almost all are wearing the alloys suitable for the heavier Fiat chassis.

I Kiki AliG wrote:I was looking at buying an IH before ordering the AS, when you look at the vans that they have for sale almost all are wearing the alloys suitable for the heavier Fiat chassis.

You look at the wheel stud gape to see if it’s the heavier chassis and different brakes[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

What’s that thing with the numbers on it that you are using?

Thats a steel rim for a heavy chassis and the studs as per my picture measure 80mm apart

Oops. Bad. My typo. MIRO for my Ih630RL should read 3185kg. (Bet it got some of you going though ...).

Hi. Weight plates on the Ih van for info.

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The fig they want is on the v5 form mass in service

Pretty much as i thought, IH have used the heavy chassis (to give good axle weights) but have plated it at 3500kg to serve drivers without a C1.
is the MIRO of 3185kg the MIRO for 'your' van....weighed or estimated by IH?
does it include any extras you ordered like the auto box etc?
even with those included that only gives you 315kg of payload.
if you then fill the van with water (80 ltrs, 67 for the tank, 10 for the boiler and 3 for the pipework), top up the fuel tank (7 kg, as miro only includes 90% full) and invite OH (nominal 75kg) to step aboard...thats another 162kg 'lost' from that original (pretty small) amount....
you now have just 153kg left for all the trappings, kit and caboodle mentioned many times in this thread...thats not much.
fortunately, if you have a C1 license, upgrading is easy and the heavy chassis will easily cope, but as above its clear that running a XLWB PVC at 3.5t is not easy.

Hi bolero boy, thanks for your input. I don't doubt your sums (although I wouldn't travel with a full water tank) but for me the final 150+kg of available freight weight adds up to more than enough for the paperbacks, maps, footwear, food, clobber etc for our trips in the 2 berth moho. After all, it's a panel van not an A Class mobile skip and so I'm happy that it fits the bill for our purposes. But thanks again for your weight estimates which may certainly help in folks' decisions.

Might be of interest.
Just looking at the latest (2021) weights published on one dealer web site suggests that all of the latest produced A/S Van conversions have benefited from a reduction in the declared MIRO to the tune of 35kg! 
In other words the Fairford is now shown as 3076kg where as the 2020 model was declared at 3111kg.
No mention of how it has been achieved.

Lots of other converters have reduced the size of the fuel tank to 60 litres to achieve an apparent reduction in MIRO.  (MIRO based on 90% full tank).

i doubt it, as all AS Peugeot XLWB 6.36m versions have been built on the heavy chassis, but running them on the light chassis would acheive just that without changing anything else.
from memory, think the difference in the two 'std' fuel tank sizes is either 60ltr or 90ltr...but there is also a long range 120ltr option for some motorhomes.
as both MIROs would include 90%, then the smaller tanks would be allocated 54ltr and  81ltrs respectively, so the move to a smaller tank could account for 27 ltrs...25kg or so? getting there...
i did read a thread where it was suggested that this was done 'to massage payload' but also, the latest Ducato uses Ad Blue (whereas the previous version did not) and the fluid load there could be offset by the smaller tank.

ujustlooking wrote:Hi bolero boy, thanks for your input. I don't doubt your sums (although I wouldn't travel with a full water tank) but for me the final 150+kg of available freight weight adds up to more than enough for the paperbacks, maps, footwear, food, clobber etc for our trips in the 2 berth moho. After all, it's a panel van not an A Class mobile skip and so I'm happy that it fits the bill for our purposes. But thanks again for your weight estimates which may certainly help in folks' decisions.

JL, have fun with the van. im sure youll love it and, as you say, will meet your requirements.

Tigger-tim wrote:Lots of other converters have reduced the size of the fuel tank to 60 litres to achieve an apparent reduction in MIRO.  (MIRO based on 90% full tank).

As far as I am aware A/S do not have any involvement in post chassis build modifications (such as changing a fuel tank) on any platforms delivered to them. I would imaging that some A class builders would get involved in such modifications. 

If the fuel tank has been reduced, then with an SG of 0.83 - a difference of 36ltrs (30ltrs + 10% of remainder) of Diesel would only account for a reduction of 29kg and as BB has pointed out above you must then take into account the addition of the AdBlue tank and its contents which would reduce this figure even further.

So the mystery of the lost 35kg on the MRO remains!

I think when Tim refers to 'reducing the size' of the tank, im assuming he means converter order a batch of vans with the smaller tank. inread that A-T have been doing this...just more smoke and mirrors like not including a 90% full water tank in the MIRO as everyone did a few years ago.
AFAIK, no converter would make changes as part of their build, i do know that some larger A class converters give the option (special order, perhaps?) of the 120ltr tank.
i wonder if AS would like to enlighten us on the changes?