New Fairfrord on the Fiat Ducato Automatic

Liam wrote:

Fixer wrote:Although the automatic gearbox adds 50kg over the manual one, Autosleepers build the 6.4mtr Fiat vans on the L4 light chassis 

I would be very interested to know where you managed to get this info from? It's certainly not in any of their brochures and I don't believe any of the dealers know!

Liam, i guess this means 'AS build AUTO 6.4m Fiat vans on the L4 light chassis'.
Peugeot manual 6.4m versions are on the heavy chassis.
My own manufacturer lists the weight penalty of the auto box as follows....
9G-Tronic automatic gearbox (in Fiat Ducato f35 version only in conjunction with 16 inch alloy rims) 18kg
9G-Tronic automatic gearbox (in Fiat Ducato f35 version only in conjunctoon with 16 inch alloy rims) for engine version 140 HP incl. ECO Pack 19.5kg

Chris,
 
Thats fine, but all rather speculative as to which Fiat chassis A/S are actually building on! 
Indeed, I have a suspicion that the current 140bhp Auto Marquis specials might be just that - a special/exclusive order for them from Fiat.

I was particularly interested as to where precisely ASOF members are getting their apparently very specific info as to the Fiat chassis type they believe that AS are using - because I can't find it anywhere on the web!
 
The dealers certainly don't seem to be that knowledgable on the chassis detail when asked.

It might be interesting if someone who has one of the very latest (2021) A/S Fiat based Auto Box vans (both Marquis 140 and Main Dealer 160 bhp versions) was to look under the bonnet and interrogate the vin code for chassis type!

Dave (Fairford owner above) has looked under the bonnet and we have discussed what he found...it wasnt what we were expecting!
he is also discussing with his AS dealer so as to effect a resolution to his 'weight issue' and will update this thread himself when he has more info to report.
BTW, Tinwheeler also has a Marquis special auto, but this is on a 6m chassis so is very likely to be standard fare but you never know.

Liam wrote:...
The dealers certainly don't seem to be that knowledgable on the chassis detail when asked.

It might be interesting if someone who has one of the very latest (2021) A/S Fiat based Auto Box vans (both Marquis 140 and Main Dealer 160 bhp versions) was to look under the bonnet and interrogate the vin code for chassis type!

I looked at two 2020 auto warwick XLs at a dealer (not marquis).  Both were 140bhp 9-speed autos.  Both were built on the H2L4 light chassis - confirmed by checking the weight plates - front axle max 1850kg, rear axle max 2000kg (the Peugeot-based heavy/maxi has axle limits of 2100 & 2400kg).

I've not seen any 160bhp Fiat auto models anywhere - they are additional cost over the 140 auto.

Tigger-tim wrote:

Liam wrote:...
The dealers certainly don't seem to be that knowledgable on the chassis detail when asked.

It might be interesting if someone who has one of the very latest (2021) A/S Fiat based Auto Box vans (both Marquis 140 and Main Dealer 160 bhp versions) was to look under the bonnet and interrogate the vin code for chassis type!

I looked at two 2020 auto warwick XLs at a dealer (not marquis).  Both were 140bhp 9-speed autos.  Both were built on the H2L4 light chassis - confirmed by checking the weight plates - front axle max 1850kg, rear axle max 2000kg.

I've not seen any 160bhp models anywhere - they are additional cost.

As far as I recall the only difference between the Marquis specials and the 'ordinary' versions on sale at other dealerships is the hab air con and, possibly, packs such as the winter pack.

The 160 versions are still scarce. Back in the summer, AS secured a batch of 140s which they converted as Marquis specials. Anything else was subject to special order and a wait of months.

I noticed that the marquis special also had reversing sensors.

Edit: just checked the spec on their website.  They also seem to have ESP with TRACTION+, and Hill Descent.

Liam wrote:

Fixer wrote:Although the automatic gearbox adds 50kg over the manual one, Autosleepers build the 6.4mtr Fiat vans on the L4 light chassis 

I would be very interested to know where you managed to get this info from? It's certainly not in any of their brochures and I don't believe any of the dealers know!

The 50kg was a figure given on a motorhome forum and I have since seen it quoted nearer to 20kg but either way it would still not leave enough payload for me.  As for AS building on the light chassis as standard, I have checked the weight plate on every one I found on forecourts to find this is the norm after realising that one I was thinking of buying was on a light chassis.
I asked about building one on the heavy chassis and had confirmation that it is possible as a cost option. The easiest way to tell a Fiat heavy panel van is that it has eyebrows on the wheel arches. I still haven’t seen a Fiat heavy AS anywhere.
After deciding I didn’t want to compromise on the automatic gearbox and not being  interested in one at 3500kg, I have ordered one to my spec.

Tigger-tim wrote:

Liam wrote:...
The dealers certainly don't seem to be that knowledgable on the chassis detail when asked.

It might be interesting if someone who has one of the very latest (2021) A/S Fiat based Auto Box vans (both Marquis 140 and Main Dealer 160 bhp versions) was to look under the bonnet and interrogate the vin code for chassis type!

I looked at two 2020 auto warwick XLs at a dealer (not marquis).  Both were 140bhp 9-speed autos.  Both were built on the H2L4 light chassis - confirmed by checking the weight plates - front axle max 1850kg, rear axle max 2000kg (the Peugeot-based heavy/maxi has axle limits of 2100 & 2400kg).

I've not seen any 160bhp Fiat auto models anywhere - they are additional cost over the 140 auto.

thanks to Tinwheeler and Dave, i know have info regarding the chassis used on AS auto versions.
as Fixer has confirmed, non-Marquis versions seem to be supplied on the normal Fiat light chassis.. 1850/2000 f/r.
however, both Dave's 6.36m Fairford and TW's 6m Warwick Duo Marquis Specials were supplied with a slightly different 'light' chassis.... the front axle is plated at 1960kg, rear 2000kg...
so, it looks like Marquis (who further add aircon to the spec) have realised the weight issue and used reinforced uprated springs on the front....this is my best guess as these are also available in my own Fiat van.
however, this does still leave the AS auto (6.36) versions more than vulnerable and the Marquis (6.36) versions just about doable...
as mentioned above, Dave will update us all on his deliberations with his dealer, im just reporting the data weve uncovered.

In the 2020 price list and specs, in the weights and dimensions pages, it quotes that the additional Fiat auto box increases the MRO by 50kg.

This may add something. If not ignore me.

I have noticed that Peugeot will supply XLWB L4 (6.4m) Boxer vans as either a 3.5t or 4t van. AS get the 3.5t model but up rating is a paper exercise.
but from what I can see, Fiat will only supply a 6.4m Ducato as a 3.5t GVW van
so AS may have no option to supply an Auto van over 3.5t

AutoSleepy_Don wrote:This may add something. If not ignore me.

I have noticed that Peugeot will supply XLWB L4 (6.4m) Boxer vans as either a 3.5t or 4t van. AS get the 3.5t model but up rating is a paper exercise.
but from what I can see, Fiat will only supply a 6.4m Ducato as a 3.5t GVW van
so AS may have no option to supply an Auto van over 3.5t

That’s not quite right as Peugeot will only supply the XLWB on the 4.5t van but Fiat will supply either version and of course the lighter Fiat being cheaper becomes the standard offering.

Has anyone checked other converters to see what weights they use, such as IH who use Fiats, Wildax who use Citroen but may offer Fiat in auto.

Paulmold wrote:Has anyone checked other converters to see what weights they use, such as IH who use Fiats, Wildax who use Citroen but may offer Fiat in auto.

I was really interested in the Wildax Europa but they only offer the Renault automatic which I don’t like. They told me that he Fiat automatic should be available to order from January

Having followed this with interest I’ve looked at Auto-Trail van conversions, Elddis & Swift. It seems there MWB & LWB Fiat Ducato vans have good payloads up to around 600kg on some of them. However as soon as they start converting the XLWB the payload reduces. On Swift if doesn’t reduce by much & still have 490kg on a manual van with only 30kg less for auto. Auto-trail have around 375kg on an XLWB conversion with no mention of what difference an auto makes. Elddis don’t do XLWB but thier LWB conversions have nearly 600kg payload.

I downloaded the IH upgrades list but couldn't find any mention of weights or payloads on autos although they do list auto as an option. IH to me always look as though they are made of much more solid materials and if they use the light platform their payload must suffer. AS can't be alone with low payloads when using the Fiat light chassis.

In response to Liam's 1340 Friday 27th post on the source of info on wheel stud measurement to identify light or heavy chassis on the Ducato, it's [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Paulmold wrote:Has anyone checked other converters to see what weights they use, such as IH who use Fiats, Wildax who use Citroen but may offer Fiat in auto.

My friend's 2020 AT 635 (120 bhp, manual) is on a Fiat XLWB lightweight chassis.

>> both Dave's 6.36m Fairford and TW's 6m Warwick Duo Marquis Specials were supplied with a slightly different 'light' chassis.... the front axle is plated at 1960kg, rear 2000kg...


Given that AS fit rear air suspension, I wonder if somneone like SVTech can approve a slight weight upgrade for the rear axle?

Tigger-tim wrote:I noticed that the marquis special also had reversing sensors.

Edit: just checked the spec on their website.  They also seem to have ESP with TRACTION+, and Hill Descent.

Tim, I was discussing the different MIRO figures with Dave yesterday and i discovered this for the two Fairford versions

"the MIRO figure given at 3217kg is taken from the Marquis 'special' Fiat auto version, against the 3111kg figure on the AS website.
so, its 106kg heavier....it has an auto box (20kg) plus aircon (say another 20kg)....however the Fiat light chassis weighs 40kg less than the Peugeot heavy chassis, so they should be about the same.
perhaps there are other extras on the Marquis Special that account for the 106kg variance...?"


other posters have mentioned ESP/traction control and reversing lights etc...it may be there are other options accounting for this 106kg increase.
coincidently, the 'uprating' of the front axle add another 110kg of capacity (1960-1850).
giving yesterdays info more thought, it may just be that Fiat change the plate to accommodate this increase without incorporating any physical changes to the front axle? Who knows?

Tigger-tim wrote:>> both Dave's 6.36m Fairford and TW's 6m Warwick Duo Marquis Specials were supplied with a slightly different 'light' chassis.... the front axle is plated at 1960kg, rear 2000kg...


Given that AS fit rear air suspension, I wonder if somneone like SVTech can approve a slight weight upgrade for the rear axle?

Tim, yes i think they can....Dave is in discussion regarding this very issue and i will let him update the thread once there is a (hopefully satisfactory) conclusion.
im happy to chat generally about numbers but will leave Dave to report on his own progress with the dealer.

Paulmold wrote:Has anyone checked other converters to see what weights they use, such as IH who use Fiats, Wildax who use Citroen but may offer Fiat in auto.

with a quick check i found that IH run their Fiat 630 vans (XLWB) at 3.5t.
they also run the new Crafter 680 vans (6.85m) at 3.5t.
i couldnt find any info regarding whether these sit on the light chassis or are on the heavy chassis and are plated at 3500.
'payload' is described as 'dependant on which options are fitted'...sufficiently vague.
you couldnt imagine a nr 7m Crafter with much to spare (with or without 'options') especially as IH now fit rear travel seats to some versions (formerly two person only vans)....has to be dodgy with two aboard and 'mightily tricky' with four...
also, IH owners tend to spend a bit of cash loading them up, all makes things more difficult.
i was i terested in one a few years ago and had a good look at the NEC, it was so loaded up it was over £80k, god knows what the payload was (wasn't).
with van converters enticing customers away from coachbuilts, they are trying to emulate a coachbuilt feel in a panel van by adding 'home comforts' and travel for four which is emulating the weight issues of 3.5t coachbuits.
Steel PVCs arent light vans to start with.....to 6m vans are still viable but the XLWB vans are becoming tricky as more kit gets included...

I have been following this thread with interest. The Marquis salesman told us that all Marquis AS “special’s” have the Premium pack and the winter pack included - together these count for 40kg according to the AS specifications and the air con is 33kg according to the Truma Aventa manual.  So that accounts for the difference?  I am not sure if the roll out awning is a AS standard or a Marquis special addition.  Does anyone know that?

inspiredron wrote:One important difference is that the Fiat engine has a camshaft drive BELT which has to be changed every 6 years, while the Peugeot has a Ford engine with camshaft drive CHAIN which should last the life of the engine.

The cambelt change interval for the Ducato is at least every 5 years.

The new Peugeot/Citroen Euro 6.2 engines are not the old Ford Puma chain cam engine any longer, they use a different engine, the PSA  DW12RU.

That has a cambelt change interval of 10 years.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Robnsand wrote:I have been following this thread with interest. The Marquis salesman told us that all Marquis AS “special’s” have the Premium pack and the winter pack included - together these count for 40kg according to the AS specifications and the air con is 33kg according to the Truma Aventa manual.  So that accounts for the difference?  I am not sure if the roll out awning is a AS standard or a Marquis special addition.  Does anyone know that?

Rob, Dave's marquis Fairford weighs 3400kg with just he and Carole aboard, along with small dog and a tank of water...no tools, bedding, crockery, cutlery, bikes, tables chairs etc, etc...
armed with this startling info, i would be getting myself to the weighbridge (or dealer with pads) PDQ to look at any paper upgrade that might help with a very tight situation.
i know you said you would travel 'light' and without water, but competely draining down every trip, especially in summer when the van is in more regular use, will become a chore...and a waste of water..it also makes the use of THS temporary sites, aires, and other 'low facs' stopping places less convenient if youre immediately looking for water...
however, the revelation that the front axle has a loading of 1960kg (rather than the usual 1850kg) might just allow for a decent margin when also considering the air-top suspension might yeild a little more on the rear, too.
as ive said, Dave is going to update us as this is the main topic of his current dealer 'chat'...

Yes, I plan be off to a weighbridge as soon as lockdown ends.  Thanks for your advice.