Battery Questions

AutoSleepy_Don wrote:

bolero boy wrote:
the 'AS effect' on vehicles' batteries is (thank goodness) not repeated everywhere...

Is it the AS effect or ......... is it the 'Sargent effect'?

I am beginning to suspect Sargent are not completely on top of their game.

At the end of the day, it is the converter who is resonsible to the customer for delivering a MH that performs to thier satisfaction.
the poor performing solar saga has been running for quite a while now and, given the amount of issues documented here, perhaps a converter would have done more than kick its components partner and try to get things back on track by delivering more complex, similar units.
its been well reported how complicated these units have become, with some converters now adding remote access/diagnostic to their electrical systems, making the latest units even more complex ad power hungry.
perhaps it might have been better to heed customer feedback and get the solar system removed from the PSU with a simple, stand alone split charge regulator.
the answer to over complexity cant be further (more complex) upgrades which add more elements yet reduce performance.
i agree Sargent have probably gone too far with the latest units, accommodating too many functions, resulting in a unit that is overloaded, just like the small under specced computer it is.
in Europe, Sargent has little or no presence in the MH market, with simple CBE units being to the fore, we have one, simple even in a relatively expensive van.
the control panel is straight forward, has few functions other than checking levels (which are always accurate, including water) and turning on the 12v systems and water pump.
the solar system is also simple and completely separate and works effectively all year round, with a smallish 100w panel maintaining two leisure batteries and a cab battery even in winter time.
having managed many a supplier in the IT world i know that ever spiralling complexity is not always the way to go....sometimes simple is better and far more reliable.
again, i realise that Sargent units are the (main) issue here but these aren't Sargent motorhomes, they are Auto Sleepers motorhomes (of Excellence?) who ultimately have to deliver a satisfactory product and if this means looking to less complex solutions (suppliers) in order to keep customers happy, then so be it.

As I've mentioned in other threads, I actually love a bit of tech in vehicles and don't have a problem with 'progress'.  That said, there's a right and wrong way to do it and I do agree that the Sargent system is trying to do too much in one 'clever' package.

I think AS would have been better to incorporate the same modern tech, but individually i.e. the solar dealt with separately with a good solar manufacturers controller (as I've now had to replace with), and separate water/heater controller etc.

By having standalone controllers each can be isolated if needed and also can do it's own thing unhindered by other systems.  So even though it will appear this is maybe going backwards to AS, it can still use the latest tech, just in a better way.

It's clear that with the Sargent, just to simply operate the solar charger to maintain 2 batteries, it shouldn't be necessary to have the entire 12V system on, including the Truma system and control display panels.

I used the "battery isolation" position on the ignition switch today and sure enough I received, within minutes, an alert from the vehicle tracking Company. So not really an option for conserving battery condition. Also worth noting that after turning the key to the above position power was available to lock the van using the remote but it was a manual key operation to open the drivers door again.

JulianWW wrote:I used the "battery isolation" position on the ignition switch today and sure enough I received, within minutes, an alert from the vehicle tracking Company. So not really an option for conserving battery condition. Also worth noting that after turning the key to the above position power was available to lock the van using the remote but it was a manual key operation to open the drivers door again.

Is yours the Sargent tracker ?

I have a Trackstar tracker, fitted by AS. Also have an "Outsmart the Thief" alarm fitted at the dealers which was also disconnected when the battery was isolated and required re-setting once power was restored. As has been described it seems to offer no practical advantage to have the vehicle battery under the control of the solar panel system. A vehicle battery in good condition should still be in a good state of charge after standing a month.

yes, it should....however there are many systems that draw power from that battery...
i had an issue where the Pioneer headset was drawing 'lots' from the cab battery and flattened it withn a few days of purchase of the van. odd as the previous van and solar system (same) could keep all batteries charged.
it was traced to a very hungry had unit and the simple solution was to turn off the 'entertainment'button or remove the 'security' clip from the radio...
even Pioneer confessed this was an issue with modern, multi tasking units (satnav, radio, phone system, dvd player etc etc...)
this type of 'computer' (sargent PSU?) consumes much power to keep it running.
agree, not good.

I disconnected the Truma I-Net controller to reduce standing power drain and as I have no desire to remotely operate the heating/hot water system, thought it and it's flashing lights served no purpose. How wrong I was because today the heating would not work and the Truma display contained a fault code - connection between control panel and heater lost. So re-connected the I-Net box and hey Presto! Oh well every day's a school day.

marbarsymbol wrote:Shutdown black button on Psu will direct all solar panel power to only leisure battery. 

If it's an EC700, Sargent has confirmed that switching off its PSU using the system shutdown button isolates the leisure battery and results in all of the solar charge going to the vehicle battery.  This is not stated in any manual.  As there will be no drain from the EC700's smart charging circuitry, the solar charge could be sufficient to keep the vehicle battery healthy without disconnecting the tracker or alarm (if fitted) or pressing the red tab on the vehicle's ignition to isolate the vehicle battery.  Over time the leisure battery will loose charge even though it is isolated.  However, when the vehicle is re-started its alternator should be able to re-charge it.  I would still plan on giving the vehicle a good run out at least once a month not just to keep the batteries topped up but also to relieve the tyres.  For longer out of use periods, it would be better to keep the leisure battery at home on a trickle charger.  Outside of the winter when there is plenty of solar charge or at any time of year when connected to a EHU, smart charging (solar or EHU) enabled by keeping the EC700 PSU and mains charger switched on with the appropriate charge settings made to the EC700 CP (the CP can then be switched off) should maintain both batteries in a healthy state during out of use periods.

Caraman wrote

"If it's an EC700, Sargent has confirmed that switching off its PSU using the system shutdown button isolates the leisure battery and results in all of the solar charge going to the vehicle battery.  This is not stated in any manual." 


It would be interesting if Sargent would also confirm that their PSU being active, is causing all the problems highlighted by this forum topic. 
My EC500 defaults Solar to the Leisure battery when shutdown, which is how Autosleeper wired the Solar panel and why I fitted a battery master to keep the vehicle one topped up.
EC700 is more complex and may well be different, but clearly not fit for purpose in winter lay ups, when control panel left active. 

Martin

marbarsymbol wrote:It would be interesting if Sargent would also confirm that their PSU being active, is causing all the problems highlighted by this forum topic. 

Sargent didn't quite express it this way but they did say "....unfortunately you cannot rely on the solar panel during the winter to keep your batteries topped up as the solar panel during the cold season can only supply about 0.2 to 0.3 amps per hour and that is only between 12 and 2:00 PM..."
What's missing from the Auto-Sleepers and Sargent manuals/user handbooks is comprehensive storage advice particularly for the winter periods.

marbarsymbol wrote:My EC500 defaults Solar to the Leisure battery when shutdown, which is how Autosleeper wired the Solar panel and why I fitted a battery master to keep the vehicle one topped up.
EC700 is more complex and may well be different, but clearly not fit for purpose in winter lay ups, when control panel left active. 

We've been through this earlier in the thread.  The EC500 defaults to leisure battery when the system is off, the EC700 to vehicle.  This isn't how Autosleeper wired it, it's the way Sargent set up the EC system and is detailed in the Sargent manual.

I think Sargent realised the problem with the initial setup in the EC500 and changed it in the 700 for this reason.

My 68-plate  Kingham has become a victim of the dreaded  DEAD BATTERY........ I too got the call from the tracking team to ask if there was a problem with my Van ...I said no but would check it out.  Needless to say the vehicle was as dead as the proverbial Dodo!
   I will now have to call Peugot Assist to get the VAn back to life.   Very frustrating and will try and get a better response from the Peugot Assisst rep.
   That said, there is, I feel, a need for Autosleeper and Peugot to provide better information, clarity and transparency for potential battery issues.  In my case despite following dealer guidelines and the information given I am left frustrated and considering my options.
   Happy New Year to all and safe travels.
   Togger

Welcome to the forum Togger.

I agree, but unfortunately it would mean A/S accepting that they have an issue with power management on their more recent conversions, and I suspect that they will not want to admit that.

It's a shame, because (IMO) they need to accept that they have an issue and sit down with Sargent and the base vehicle manufacturers and figure out why they have a problem. Until they do that, they are going to continue to get dissatisfied customers who rightly ask why the batteries are already wrecked before the vehicle gets to 2 years old.

As you and Caraman both say, better documentation will help, but what's really needed is a design change so that their conversions can be put into a genuinely low-power state for storage without the need to disconnect batteries.

Thanks Roopert, appreciated and a steep learning curve in the school of hard knocks. Called Autosleeper but will have to wait until they are back in the New Year.  Looking forward to how they respond.
Regards,
T

Peter Brown wrote:I've just read the 2018 Kingham handbook that is available to read on the AS website.......... In particular on page 10.4 there is very specific and correct information as to how to enable the electrical system for winter storage.

Reference 10.4:-

"Electrical

Turn the electrical system off using the
‘Shutdown Switch’ on the front of the control
box (see diagram & ‘Activating the System’ in
section 7). This turns off all the leisure
electronics apart from any alarm and tracker
power feeds.
Peugeot recommend that if the vehicle is to
be parked up for a period of more than one
month then it is advisable to disconnect the
main vehicle battery. For full instructions on
the correct procedure refer to the Peugeot
handbook supplied with the vehicle and look
for the section covering the battery. If this
advice is followed, bear in mind that the
remote central locking will not function,
although it will still be possible to unlock and
lock the doors manually using the key.
To maintain the vehicle battery in good
condition it is recommended that it is fully
charged prior to storage and then recharged
every 3 months."

This says that Autosleeper know of the shortcomings of the EC700 but where is the Sargent logic of diverting the default setting of solar charge to the vehicle battery with the Peugeot disconnection advice and when alarms and trackers are being supplied from the leisure battery. 
It seems they have made the situation worse as any solar charge no longer supports the alarm and tracker supply. 

Look on the bright side, a couple of months and the problems should disappear once the van is in use once more.

Martin

when you turn off control panel this system will only charge the leisure battery and not the vehicle from solar system  . This is the wrong way should charge the vehicle when control is turned off so you can still start after being in storage and in the weather we have just had in the last few weeks the solar system fitted needs to be more than a 100w panel and the vans only have a 80w  to keep battery  topped up. I had 1 x 100w on my last van and this was no good in the winter so I fitted a second 100w and was ok each winter after. the control panel will only go up to 140w .On the hand over was told this is how it works and said that will not be any good my batteries will go flat .I have already fitted a second leisure battery as the 80w panel will not work for me would need a lot off sun every day. If your going to fit kit make sure its going to work as what auto sleeper have fitted clearly is not. All this is damaging the batteries starter alternator all been put under extra load. The vehicle should charge first then switch over to the leisure when control is turn off so you can still start after being parked for more than a week

Peter Brown wrote:I've just read the 2018 Kingham handbook that is available to read on the AS website.  Everything you need to know and a lot more that will help you enjoy using the van is contained in it.  In particular on page 10.4 there is very specific and correct information as to how to enable the electrical system for winter storage.

The 2018 AS handbooks cover the EC328 and EC500 power control systems but not the EC700.  For the EC700 you have to go to the Harmony Utility Management System User Instruction Handbook which does not refer to winterisation.  The 2018 AS handbooks do not mention what precautions if any should be taken with the leisure battery during winter storage.  My assumption is that no precautions are necessary as all the solar charge defaults to the leisure battery when the power control system is switched off.  But Sargent has told me that the EC700's solar power defaults to the vehicle battery and that the leisure battery is isolated.  My assumption is that this removes the need to use the vehicle battery isolating switch during winter storage and that the leisure battery should be removed and stored at home on a trickle charger.  However, we shouldn't be relying on assumptions.  It should all be explained in the handbooks which it isn't.  It would also be nice to know to improve understanding how much current the power control systems draw when left on with the vehicle out of use and whether the vehicle or leisure battery provides the tracker and alarm (if fitted) with its primary power and how much current they draw.

glyne lock wrote:when you turn off control panel this system will only charge the leisure battery and not the vehicle from solar system  . This is the wrong way should charge the vehicle when control is turned off so you can still start after being in storage and in the weather we have just had in the last few weeks the solar system fitted needs to be more than a 100w panel and the vans only have a 80w  to keep battery  topped up. I had 1 x 100w on my last van and this was no good in the winter so I fitted a second 100w and was ok each winter after. the control panel will only go up to 140w .On the hand over was told this is how it works and said that will not be any good my batteries will go flat .I have already fitted a second leisure battery as the 80w panel will not work for me would need a lot off sun every day. If your going to fit kit make sure its going to work as what auto sleeper have fitted clearly is not. All this is damaging the batteries starter alternator all been put under extra load. The vehicle should charge first then switch over to the leisure when control is turn off so you can still start after being parked for more than a week

i can assure you that a single 100w solar panel is sufficient to keep my two 95ah leisure batteries and my vehicle battery fully charged while on my driveway, even in the current dull weather.
of course, i dont have a hungry Sargent PSU, merely a twin channel solar regulator diverting charge to whichever battery needs it, cheap and simple and fit for purpose.

Re: Caramans post....as we use the van regularly throughout the year including the winter time, removing two large leisure batteries for charging in the short periods of non use (because the solar system couldnt maintain charge) would be a real pain...of course, a seperate mains charger could be applied to the leisure batteries in situ but these vans are supposed to be self sufficient, arent they?

many, many posts have been written about this situation which is exacerbated during winter and folk have two choices....
1) put up with the shortcomings of the installed system and its resource hungry components and employ various unsatisfactory workarounds
2) make New Years Resolution to get away from the above and use the installed solar panel in a more efficient way by bypassing the PSU and fitting a seperate twin channel solar regulator or a single channel regulator and a battery master.

why, after all these poor customer's complaints (surely just the tip of the iceberg) AS hasnt moved to something more efficient, Heaven only knows.

bolero boy wrote:
why, after all these poor customer's complaints (surely just the tip of the iceberg) AS hasn't moved to something more efficient, Heaven only knows.

I have no idea, but the current situation makes me wonder if it is because Sargent don't have any competitors?
I note AS are moving from Truma to Whale for the heating, but I would rather they changed the electrics from Sargent to another supplier.

Don, this forum contains a tiny amount of overall AS owners yet the ratio of these 'electrical/battery/solar' issues within the overall forum is huge...
there must be many, many owners giving AS hell over this topic.
as i said in an earlier post, continental vans tend to use CBE, Shaudt etc for their electrical systems yet AS/Swift/AutoTrail et al go for Sargent...

in the past (we've had two Swifts) ive always had great service from Sargent but their systems were far simpler then than the multi-tasking, complex items being discussed here...

as you say, perhaps converters will start pushing back and look for simpler, seperate systems rather than the all-in-one 'mainframes' we are seeing now...

Hi Peter, Thanks for the post and re-read the manual and still not convinced that we are being given a full story.   Since my last post I have got the Leisure battery up to speed and the van internals looking OK, but, vehicle battery is not looking good.  Had thought that I could switch battery charging using the panel display....but does not seem to be working and V-batt reading 2.3V and redlined.  AS_team not back until next week so the clock is ticking.
Happy New Year A ll

Togger wrote:V-batt reading 2.3V and redlined.

That will ~probably~ be a blown fuse on the link between the Sargent system and the Vehicle battery.