Battery Questions

Hello

Yesterday I had a text and email notification from the tracker on my Boxer based AS to tell me the leisure battery voltage had dropped to a critical level. We visited the van (it's in storage) today to check things out and found that both leisure and vehicle battery had dropped down to around 8v. I had to use the key to open the vehicle which was completely dead and wouldn't start.

The van was bought new in March and this is the first time we've had this problem. The van was last used about 3-4 weeks ago and has not been moved since, I'm pretty sure it's been left unattended for a similar time without this problem - though that was in the summer and it has been quite dark and overcast recently so not much top-up from the solar panel. When leaving the van I turn off the power at the display but not at the PSU itself since I'm worried that that might stop power reaching the alarm and tracker. The van is now running again after a visit by Peugeot Assist, but I'm getting conflicting stories of how things work and would appreciate any clarification from those that know about these matters.

1. I now believe that it is advisable to turn off the PSU directly under the bench using the physical button and that the alarm and tracker will not be affected by this?
   
2. Turning the PSU off under the bench will disable the solar charging panel?
   
3. Hooking up the vehicle to a mains supply will cause both the leisure and the vehicle batteries to be charged using the built in intelligent charger?
   
4. The Peugeot Assist (RAC actually) guy insisted on connecting his jump leads directly to the vehicle battery under the passenger floor and told me the charging points under the bonnet were not suitable for jump starting. This seems to contradict the manual - which is right?
   
5. I believe it's possible to buy a lithium ion based charging unit for about £80 which will deliver enough 12V current to start a 3.0 litre diesel engine up to 4 times. Do these really work and does anyone have any experience of them?
   
6. Are the leisure and vehicle batteries in completely different circuits - can one go totally flat without the other being affected?
   
7. Any thoughts on what might have caused both batteries to go flat?
   
8. The RAC man read the voltage on the vehicle battery at 4-5v is this likely to have caused permanent damage over a few days.
   

Thanks for any responses and general advise on this matter.

Regards
Des

If you just turn off at the control panel then battery drain first flattens the leisure battery and then the vehicle battery.
Shutdown black button on Psu will direct all solar panel power to only leisure battery. 
Any charging from EHU will only be directed to the battery selected as active prior to shutdown. 
As no control panel is operative Solar or EHU supply cannot be shared or directed to both batteries. 
The drain from the Sargent system is far greater than from vehicle alarms radio memory or trackers etc.
A battery master such as from Vanbitz, is recommended to help a fully charged leisure battery keep the vehicle one topped up as the Solar panel will top up the leisure one.

Hope this helps
Martin

Before fitting solar panel and battery master our Symbols vehicle battery dropped to 4.5volts (6 month old vehicle)
Peugeot dealers tested and ok 'd battery and 5 years later still going strong.
If you can run the vehicle for 10 to 20 mins every month then this will even up tyre wear from being parked in one position as well as keeping both batteries charged from the alternator and it's split charger.

Many thanks for the quick response Martin.

Encouraging to hear that your vehicle battery seems to have survived the trauma!
Interesting about the Sargent system, do you know which battery it draws its power from?

Thanks again
Des

Des
I understand it is powered from leisure battery but the electronics of monitoring both batteries continually has an effect on both. Hence Sargent and A/S suggesting shutdown

Desg, Your experience has been shared by many over the last few years and there are many posts on this forum on the subject, one running currently:

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On one occasion my vehicle battery dropped to about 4V and I expected it to be toast. However, I was able to recharge and the battery has lasted another 6 years!
If your van has deadlocks you cannot connect an external charger or jump leads to the under bonnet connection as you cannot open the passenger door to get at the bonnet release. On my van the passenger door has no key!  These are vans made in Italy and designed for LHD. Not everything is reversed for the UK and a deadlocked door will not open with the inside handle.
That may be why the breakdown man lifted the floor for direct connection to the vehicle battery.

Hi DesG. It’s all a bit of a pain that you are having these problems  with a 6 month old vehicle. We had a couple of electrical issues on our Stanton which overlapped the base vehicle and conversion when it was under warrantry.  I spoke to both the M/H supplier and Mercedes Van dealer about who should deal with it, and they advised me in a way that sorted things out satisfactorily and I dealt with them. However, my understanding is that it is the legal  responsibility of the supplying M/H dealer to deal with any issues under warranty.  If they need to call on Peugeot for their help, the M/H dealer does it as part of the warrantry. 
As far as a battery conditioner is concerned, I have for many years, had an Optimate connected  to my motorbikes and that does the job fine. However the motorbikes are well out of warrantry. You can get Battery Conditioners for most vehicles. I would personally be very careful fitting anything not supplied by the dealer for any vehicle of mine under Warrantry, so they may be able to supply and fit one for you if they recommend it. Good luck with it !! Mike

I cannot (yet) offer you a fix but I can tell you my 2019 registered Warwick Duo is behaving the same as yours. The problem did not show up until the winter night time temperature arrived but my batteries are now falling to less than 12v in under a week. The dealer has checked the battery condition and measured the constant drain which he agrees is higher than expected. All charging systems are good and the only live components when parked up are alarm (aftermarket) tracker and Truma I-net unit. I'm going to disconnect the Truma as I don't use it. If the problem persists I will next eliminate the alarm & then the tracker. By the way disconnecting the tracker will initiate alerts from the tracking company. I can keep the van connected to the mains but this shouldn't be necessary.

Having had the same problems on our brand new van in 2016, I am afraid at this time of year you do need to connect it to the mains. I have a 120w solar fitted but still charge it via a timer twice a week.
Not ideal I know but that's the way it is with the charging system fitted as standard.

There are many threads on here stating work rounds.

Roll on the sunshine, when it all works fine as it should.

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Richard

Thanks for your input. Checked today and both batteries have dropped to 11.5v so plugged into mains to let the on-board charger recover them. Buying an external socket from Screwfix so I can plug in without leaving the garage door ajar. Seems from all the info on the forum the continual drain is going to stay but I will look to improve the situation if I can. (Without investing in more kit!)

JulianWW wrote:Thanks for your input. Checked today and both batteries have dropped to 11.5v so plugged into mains to let the on-board charger recover them. Buying an external socket from Screwfix so I can plug in without leaving the garage door ajar. Seems from all the info on the forum the continual drain is going to stay but I will look to improve the situation if I can. (Without investing in more kit!)

Yes that is what I have done, external socket makes it easy, lucky we are able to store and charge our vans at home, otherwise it would be a right pain. When we go away for 4-6 weeks at a time, the Fords always start on the button, but I suppose cars are different.
I have got the van rigged up to an auto timer twice a week.
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Richard

rgermain wrote:
When we go away for 4-6 weeks at a time, the Fords always start on the button, but I suppose cars are different.

Yes. I have noted that too.    
I blame Sargent and (in my case) the HAL 1000 tracker, who both seem to be a decade or 2 behind the curve in terms of electrical power efficiency. I think a Boxer van on it's own would last as well as a car.

AutoSleepy_Don wrote: I think a Boxer van on it's own would last as well as a car.

A new car battery wouldn't last much more than two weeks without charge, that's why the makers all advise disconnecting the battery during storage.

Peter Brown wrote:
A new car battery wouldn't last much more than two weeks without charge

I left my Audi for 7 weeks this year and it started OK when I returned.

Peter Brown wrote:Desg, Your experience has been shared by many over the last few years and there are many posts on this forum on the subject, one running currently:

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I just posted my findings on that thread - basically after also hitting these problems and looking into it more, I decided the 'smart' controller is not worth using for solar maintenance of the batteries and it's a pretty poor system, since the drain from it outweighs the gains from the solar.

I removed the solar input from the EC500 and removed the solar controller they use in favour of a much better 2 battery controller with it's own control display unit.  A second 80W panel on the roof and now I have 160W max (potential) controlled to both batteries whether the EC500 is on or off.  With the system off and so minimal drain on the batteries, the new controller can now trickle more than enough solar into both batteries to pretty much store the van without issue between uses.

Peter Brown wrote:

AutoSleepy_Don wrote: I think a Boxer van on it's own would last as well as a car.

A new car battery wouldn't last much more than two weeks without charge, that's why the makers all advise disconnecting the battery during storage.

I have not found that to be the case, well not on Fords! Our MK 8 Fiesta is fully loaded, although I suppose most systems are sleeping while not moving and parked up.
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Richard

Thanks for all the helpful responses. 

We're going to adopt a strategy of turning off the PSU under the bench, not setting the 3rd party alarm and taking the van for a spin once a month unless we get an earlier notification. We'll leave the Sargent Tracker running - though I'm not sure how or if we could turn that off even if we wanted to?

We've also invested in a 10,000mAh jump start booster so that we can start the van if we do suffer from a flat vehicle battery.

Incidentally, we went away for 6 weeks last year and on our return both our Renault and Landrover started without any problems having stood on our drive during our absence.

Regards
Des

Des
Sounds like a good plan
Martin

I guess the problem with our cars is that they are so lightly used that the batteries are nowhere near fully charged when we leave them, hence the short period of time to discharge.

Previous comment by Peter Brown  ........

"A new car battery wouldn't last much more than two weeks without charge, that's why the makers all advise disconnecting the battery during storage."

This is true when running an alarm system, but there should be no difficulty with leaving a car (or van) just parked up and locked without an alarm. I have left cars for up to 10 weeks without any problem at all (assuming that the battery is in a good state).

AutoSleepy_Don wrote:

Peter Brown wrote:
A new car battery wouldn't last much more than two weeks without charge

I left my Audi for 7 weeks this year and it started OK when I returned.

...and my little Fiat 500 shopper was fine after 12 weeks....

the 'AS effect' on vehicles' batteries is (thank goodness) not repeated everywhere...

also, nice to see some sensible, simple solar workarounds being discussed recently.
it is perfectly easy to maintain three batteries (2x leisure, 1 vehicle) in a MH even in the gloom of a UK winter, ive been doing it for years and some other members are now coming forward with their findings.

might make the difference between a Happy New Year and not....

Season's Greetings all.

bolero boy wrote:
the 'AS effect' on vehicles' batteries is (thank goodness) not repeated everywhere...

Is it the AS effect or ......... is it the 'Sargent effect'?

I am beginning to suspect Sargent are not completely on top of their game.

AutoSleepy_Don wrote:

bolero boy wrote:
the 'AS effect' on vehicles' batteries is (thank goodness) not repeated everywhere...

Is it the AS effect or ......... is it the 'Sargent effect'?

I am beginning to suspect Sargent are not completely on top of their game.

Yes I don't think we can blame AS as they use Sargent power systems, like most things in our vans, parts are supplied by an outside source.

I can only hope AS see or get reports of these failures or problems and think about such in future vans.
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Richard

Peter Brown wrote:I guess the problem with our cars is that they are so lightly used that the batteries are nowhere near fully charged when we leave them, hence the short period of time to discharge.

Yes I do charge our car batteries before leaving on holiday, so I can see where the problems can arise if not fully charged, hence they both start on our return.
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Richard