Harmony gearbox- today's conundrum !

Something for a wet Saturday afternoon-
Parked the Harmony (1999 1.9TD) a couple of weeks ago with no problems, 1st cold gear change from 1st to 2nd needed the usual double de-clutch but apart from that nothing unusual.
Went out to the van this afternoon and can only select gears with the engine off, (both with and without the clutch) as soon as its running and attempt to select a gear it is blocked. Reverse graunches but doesn't select.
There's nothing blocking the clutch pedal and I'm getting some resistance from it, but it does go right to the floor.
I've tried the 'launch' test as advised by the dealer, engage 1st then start the engine with the clutch out to see if that would free off a sticking clutch- didn't work.
Fortunately he gave me a 12 month all in warranty (not bad for a 13year old motor) and has promised to fix it but I'd like a 'heads up' on what the problem might be.
Any offers ??
ps. Another reason for buying local.

from 1st to 2nd needed the usual double de-clutch

I don't think thats right, mines a '98 Pug, & it changes absolutly pefect in all gears from cold, no double declutching either!!

I wonder if your clutch isn't releasing due to the master or slave cylinder leaking (seals failed) if so, fully pressing the pedal to the floor still wont push the clutch-arm in & thereby making gearchanging difficult/impossible.
Just a thought.

Thanks for the info modelman, I've been a martyr to that gearbox since we originally bought the van in 1999 ! A recent gearbox service according to Diamond Dave's (from PMH magazine) advice improved things a lot apart from that cold 1st to 2nd.
Our Harmony was built in 1998, was converted by AS in June that year but stood for 9 months before we bought as new in April 99. (we changed to an Executive in 02, and re-purchased the Harmony last year- detailed elsewhere) There were quite a few dealer visits (inc Peugeot Coventry) trying to make it better. Maybe it was built on a Friday ?
I'm looking forward to the dealer coming to get it as its parallel parked in a 25' pull-in at the back of our bungalow off a shared access road. There's 10' to my carport going forward and a gnats whisker to a brick wall behind ! I can see some sweaty pushing coming up ....... at least its not loaded and only 2400kg on the scales.

Hi newterry,
sounds strange!
Our '97 Talismans (2.5td) clutch always made a "creaking" noise, owner informed us it always done that! On our first major trip to Scotland it went bang, RAC tried to fix it with a new cable, but something had jammed the operating lever. When stripped out, the release bearing was wedged into the forks of the centre plate!! It had worn the cabon bearing just enough to allow it to force through when the clutch was operated. Worked ok, untill it failed dramatically. Don't know if clutch systems are similar set upon the 1900. Don't want to depress you! Mike.

Actionmike, I've had 3 vans apart from this one, a W reg 1.9TD Executive and an 03 2.0HDi Dorset and have never experienced anything like this before.
There is a record of the clutch cable being replaced by a previous owner a few years ago so I'm hoping its as simple as that. There's no record of a new clutch though so maybe its still on its original from 1998 ?
I'm sure sitting in a field for 9 months through its 1st winter (unbeknown to us at the time) didn't help.
Modelman might be onto something but there's no drips under the van and no loose cables under the bonnet that I can see. The gearbox itself is not very visible and I'm not even going to attempt to jack it up.
As I've got a 12month all-in warranty I'm going to leave it to the dealer to sort out, but any advice gives me a 'heads up' when discussing his options tomorrow. I'm also going to ask for the relevant job sheet when its finished so that I can see what has been done for my service history and based on what I've read here.
I'm also glad I've got full on Green Flag with no weight or length restrictions should this have happened away from home. I know £110 through the Caravan Club seems expensive but it covers my car as well and they provide a driver if I'm ill or injured (essential with a disabled Mrs H).
What's the betting I'll go out to it tomorrow and it'll go OK straight from the off ........... (though I doubt it this time)

If it's had a new clutch cable in the past, then it won't be the clutch master or slave cylinder that's the problem will it?
It does sound like a problem with the clutch releasing though. It's possible that the spinner plate has stuck to the flywheel.

BTW
Anyone with a Boxer that has a cable operated clutch would be wise to buy a spare pedal. They are made of a plastic material and are known to snap off at the top where the cable attaches.

If your clutch cable snaps, the RAC,AA,Green Flag etc. can fit a temporary cable, but they can't do anything for you if the pedal goes, except tow you somewhere.

Frank

Good advice from everyone as usual, how I wish we'd had this forum back in '99.
Thanks boxerman that adds another possibility. When I did the 'lurch' test yesterday I kept the clutch pedal up, is there any mileage in engaging 1st, keeping the clutch pedal down and then switch the engine on and release the pedal or am I going to do more damage? I've got 10' before I hit my car port !!
ps forgive the naive questions- but you gotta learn somehow.

newterry wrote: When I did the 'lurch' test yesterday I kept the clutch pedal up, is there any mileage in engaging 1st, keeping the clutch pedal down and then switch the engine on and release the pedal or am I going to do more damage? I've got 10' before I hit my car port !!
ps forgive the naive questions- but you gotta learn somehow.

Keep the pedal down and the handbrake on.

Right, I'll give it a go.

Hope we hear from him again

BANG ! Aaarghhhh........... I'm writing this from A&E.... Only joking.
The nice man from Green Flag came this afternoon and after some pushing and shoving we (note 'we') managed to get the van halfway out of its parking space. He then attached a winch via right angled pulley on the truck deck out in the road and I steered under his finger waving instructions. It was then a question of getting out in the road in amongst impatient bus drivers for a straight pull up the sloping deck.
Ignition only to release the steering lock and no PAS, not sure who had the easier job, him pulling levers or me standing up trying to turn the steering wheel ??
Anyway, its gone to the dealer (P&P Campers of Gosport) with a promise they will fix it, whatever 'it' is.
Had to remind him that if he got lost and found he had to go under a bridge (he'd have to be well lost for that to happen, but he did have a Satnag) that the pointy bit of the TV areal takes the height up to just over 10' on top of a 4' high load deck.
Watch this space for the outcome.

The Harmony is back having had a failed pressure plate and bearing replaced FOC by Daniel at P&P Campers in Gosport under warranty after 9 months of ownership. With a £100 contribution (less than the part cost) from me and at P&P's suggestion the clutch plate has been replaced as well and what a difference. Not quite finger tip gear changing but far easier than when we originally had her from new!!
Daniel himself came and picked us from home to collect the Harmony from his dealership. I've got a copy of his detailed invoice from the garage who did the work and he didn't get off too lightly but has been a pleasure to deal with. It pays to go local, boring old broken record, I know.

For information, there's a good article in January 2012 Practical Classics magazine explaining the mystery of clutches with some very clear diagrams, not quite workshop manual stuff but does the job to the uninitiated.

Finally, for those trying to fill in gaps in a service history, there's a quote from the Retail Motor Industry Federation in Auto Express issue 1215 (2 May 2012), page 80, that says its members must keep service histories for 7 years and 'most will be happy to provide details'.

Thanks to all who offered advice.

That's excellent news.
To get a clutch changed after nine months, smacks in the face that it is a 'consumable item' or 'driver abuse!'

Glad you named the dealer....good for them.

PB

Thanks,peugeotboxer. At the risk of boring everyone on the forum I'm going to do a follow-up to my original letter in MMM Jan 2012 as there have been some updates to the Harmony and to give Daniel (and his Dad) a wider audience.
I want to press home the importance of buying local and beware the 'snake eye's' of shows, which are for mainly comparing different vehicles and layouts. Of course if you live near a dealer at a show then get stuck in by all means.
I've been wearing my anorak this afternoon and it seems from what records I have got that she has had around £6000 spent on her by previous owners and dealers over the years.
Hope the investment pays off in the long run, but we do it for love, don't we ??

We love our Harmony and i'm sure you will too.

PB

When we first bought the Harmony back in 1999 it opened up so many unexpected horizons and led us on to the Executive for a specific purpose having seen what could be achieved. The fact she turned up down here after all this time is very poignant and its great to see her parked up at the end of the garden ready for action. The fact the Harmony will enhance my wife's quality of life is also not lost on us either (she's recovering from a stroke and a recent small heart attack).
So, peugeotboxer, thanks for showing an interest, good wishes to you and your Harmony, I would have been lost without the support from this forum.

newterry wrote:When we first bought the Harmony back in 1999 it opened up so many unexpected horizons and led us on to the Executive for a specific purpose having seen what could be achieved. The fact she turned up down here after all this time is very poignant and its great to see her parked up at the end of the garden ready for action. The fact the Harmony will enhance my wife's quality of life is also not lost on us either (she's recovering from a stroke and a recent small heart attack).
So, peugeotboxer, thanks for showing an interest, good wishes to you and your Harmony, I would have been lost without the support from this forum.

Best wishes to your OH as well

PB

Im relieved to see someone else is having (or had issues with the gear box) to get into first or second i almost have to break my toe pushing down on the clutch and dislocate my shoulder to change gear, Having only driven a small petrol car and a diesel peugeot 4007 (which changes with the lightest touch) I was shocked at how hard it is to change gear. Im going to sound stupid now so bear with me but what is this double de clutch methot people have mentioned? 2-3 and 3-4 etc is fine but 1st and second are positively painful.

This is quite a long reply so please persevere as the info should help.
Since the clutch pressure plate and release bearing have been replaced replaced under warranty and I had the clutch itself replaced having to only pay for the part (dealer wanted £100,less than cost,to do so) changing gear has been a lot easier.
I also had the gearbox itself serviced as a stand alone item back in January which just left the first change from cold of 1st into 2nd a bit stiff but there was a definite improvement (cost £50).
Please find the verbatim advice from Diamond Dave of Practical Motorhome which I gave to the garage for the gearbox service-
'The Boxer gearshift is managed by two heavy duty Bowden cables ( a bit like bicycle brake cables but heavier gauge) and is usually pretty reasonable. I have encountered a few vehicles where it was less than satisfactory though and there are a couple of possiblities as to what is causing your problem.
1/ dry/corroded ball joints on the gearbox end of the cables, they can be seen from underneath looking up from behind the engine on the vehicles nearside. A good dose of spray grease on the cable end fittings and associated couplings will often help.

2/ the cables may be out of line and professional help will be needed to adjust them properly.

3/ There have been issues with the scuttle drain tube not being sealed and allowing rain water to enter the gearbox through the gearchange shaft. This water gets mashed up with the gear oil to form a thick and sticky mess that can cause stiff gearchanges. Again professional help will be required to clean the gunge out and refill with good clean oil and seal the scuttle drain tube'.

I maintain that the initial damage was done when the Harmony sat idle from new (left AS QC dept June 1998) for 9 months over its first winter back in 1998/9 before we originally bought it in April 1999.

The new pressure plate and release bearing plus the clutch plate cost £552 in total, £452 paid by the dealer.
Diamond Dave did say that they ought to have replaced the cover plate at the same time, but I'm happy with the outcome so far.
Hope this helps.

newterry wrote:
The new pressure plate and release bearing plus the clutch plate cost £552 in total, £452 paid by the dealer.
Diamond Dave did say that they ought to have replaced the cover plate at the same time, but I'm happy with the outcome so far.
Hope this helps.

Cover plate / Pressure plate = same thing

Frank

Thanks for clearing that up, I did think at the time it was a bit of a strange reply from DD.

Diamond Dave should polish up on his technical correspondence

I've just re-read his reply and there seems to be a terminology thing going on, he's referring to the 'cover assembly' and refers to the pressure plate as the 'friction plate'. Anyway, the gear change is better than was from new so I'm happy (and it only cost me £100).
The odd thing is that the original garage in Reading who were dealing with the gear change issue back then did say it needed a new clutch (in 2000) and I declined as they wanted £500 for the privilege and they wouldn't do it under warranty (wear & tear) because they would have known it was built in 1998.
We registered it new in 1999 NOT knowing it had already been sitting about for 9 months, maybe this clutch was still the original, after all the mileage now is 'only' 56,000 ?

I've said it before, if only there had been forums back then ...........

As boxerman correctly states - the clutch cover and the pressure plate are incorporated in a single unit which comes as an assembly. The friction plate can also be called a centre plate.

Blimey, I've still got a lot to learn about the 'oily bits' !!
I did like the article and diagrams on clutches in January's Practical Classics, more homework I think !