Are our brakes really good enough?

by Grahamjane Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:11 pm

When fender bender posed a question about brakes most people thought their brakes were good. What is good? I am not overly happy with mine.

I would expect to be able get my brakes to squeal or lock on a dry road if I pushed really hard, unfortunately they do not do this.
I appreciate that emergency braking should not lock the wheels, cadence braking, ABS etc.

my brakes slow me down well with a nice early "bite"but lack that really stand on the nose feeling I would expect.
yes it is a commercial vehicle, yes it is running at near max load but surely it is designed to do that and cope with modern traffic. I know there are many vehicles that can stop quicker than I can and it worries me.
Certainly they are not as good as my ten year old "basic" high mileage Vauxhall Zafira.

I am confident that my brakes are well serviced and operating as designed. I know how to read the road and plan ahead....but there is going to be the unexpected one day.

thoughts?
It is almost as though we need softer pads, which would mean changing them more frequently.

scratch head

Graham

by fisherman3 Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:20 pm

your camper weighs almost 3.5 tons without your gear in it.abs means you cannot lock your wheels.if in doubt check your stopping distance from a reasonable speed.our 1992 talbot autosleeper stops realy well even in the wet.if you are still unsure get a reputable mechanic to do a check.brakes are important.g

by Grahamjane Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:41 pm

Hi,

thanks, I agree brakes are really important.
surely the weight is mostly irrelevant, the brakes just need to be designed to cope.
If the van is fitted with ABS I believe you should be able to brake hard enough for it to cut in on dry road, the fast gentle juddering sensations ( on a vw I tried and on my Vauxhaul). my van gets no where near this.

As to maintenance, my mechanic says it is normal and fine.

I suspect most of us drive carefully and gently. I am proposing we do not have high enough expectations and that the vehicles do not match modern emergency braking norms.

So specific question. Those of you with ABS fitted vans. Can you get the ABS to cut in on dry roads? it will on my car.

thoughts?
Graham

by boxerman Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:52 pm

If you don't have confidence in your vehicle, stop driving it & sell it. Buy something that you are happy with.

I've had mine for about 14 years and have never had any worries about it's braking performance.

Frank

by fisherman3 Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:59 pm

the brakes on our talbot are extremely good,well above mot standard.as boxerman says change for one you are confident with. just a thought is this your first campervan? g

by fisherman3 Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:01 pm

on checking you are a long time member so my though is not valid apologies.g

by Grahamjane Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:11 pm

Hi Fisherman3.
thanks for your feedback and yours Boxerman
just to confirm, I have had many campers over the last 20 years and many have worried me, I have never run into anyone (touch wood) but the potential was there. I think many commercial van brakes are not as good as cars and wonder why we accept it. I was hoping for more from a recent Peugeot, one of the reasons i changed from a much, much older Symphony.

my previous vehicle a Bilbo Celeste on a VW 2.5tdi had excellent brakes and would brake hard enough to get the abs to cut in. I would check it once a year before the MOT on a quiet stretch of dry road.

maybe I am wrong, as I say do others find they can get their ABS to cut in on dry roads? Car drivers can.

Any lorry drivers out there? how do lorries brakes perform in emergencies?

by Trophyman Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:21 pm

Graham this is a thought-provoking question and I applauded the spirit of your enquiry, which I think is to share experiences and see if we can make things better. am actually on my first camper (1995 VW trophy automatic petrol) and I have also felt that the brakes are good but not brilliant. Exactly like you, I feel that they need a teamwork approach from the driver, to anticipate road conditions and distances....but that they will not be up to a sudden and serious demand to 'stop right now'...

As a novice van driver I had thought this was par for the course, but hearing that a 1992 Talbot can stop well leaves me wondering if mine can be improved. For example, approaching a que of traffic down a slight hill once, I found myself practically standing on the brakes to get the old girl to stop. Now that I know, I just drive slower and brake early, even if this means have to set a reminder call on my iPhone :-). By contrast, I drive a Volvo XC70 AWD estate and the brakes on that are awesome. I guess the question is partly, how do you measure the braking efficiency on an older van? Maybe there is a braking 'torque' test that a garage can apply to tell us how our vans compare to the way they were when new....and then is there a mod that can be applied to transform the van to achieve similar braking ability to more modern cars.

by daisy mae Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:56 pm

I was taught to drive by using the gears as a brake which I still do, also anticipation the traffic lights weigh up if about to change either go down the gears and slowly come to a stop or ready to apply accelerator to go, sometimes on our medieval bridge on a country lane with traffic lights would you believe I can usually time it so that I don`t even stop completely, my husband on the other hand stops with a * Inappropriate Word * at the lights, which doesn`t make comfortable driving for the passenger, my instructor use to say pretend you have a pint of beer in your hand and not to spill a drop that is how you should drive.His words stayed with me. yes I did pass first time.

My Daughter put the wind up me first time of her driving, thought I would go through the windscreen when she stopped at a junction. didn`t think she was going to stop, I shouted at her, she said she was taught that way.
Sorry if this upsets anyone just saying how things were taught years ago and saves stamping on the brakes at the last minute, dread to think the consequences if the brakes failed.
Best regards,
M

"inappropriate word " where on earth did that come from, not me, will it accept jolt ? snigger

I find the brakes on mine when I do use them good.

by m8form8 Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:00 am

The brakes on my last van an automatic transit of some 21 years of age were initially frightening, no abs in those days on trannys. However like you Margaret I learnt to drive with similar instruction, in an automatic you do however need to use brakes to slow more often than an a manual. I think people forget that this is a commercial van not a car. Although it felt like nothing was happening it certainly was. confused3

An emergency stop in Italy proved that.
The center of gravity is very different to a car with a van or motorhome. In a car most of the weight is to the front so when you brake sharply that's where the effort is. With a motorhome the weight is more spread and often the rear is where more weight is concentrated. Its less a throw forward feeling as a result. ALTHOUGH WHEN AVOIDING A HEAD ON IN ITALY WITH A '@@@@@@@ WOMAN I STILL ENDED UP THROWN FORWARDS! MY OTHER HALF WAS DRIVING. lol4

by Dutto Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:23 am

Hi there,

On "Petal" (a Duetto based on a 1998 Transit) the very first thing I have to remember when towing the quad on an un-braked trailer is that my stopping distance has hugely increased regardless of weather or road conditions.

It would be nice if the braking distance didn't change ... up!

... and it would be even nicer if "Petal" could stop on a sixpence under all conditions ... allthumbz

... but a fact of life is that it is up to the driver to drive within the limits of the vehicle.

One very near miss made me much more aware of the problem.

Travelling on an "A" class road, the driver of a car about 25 metres in front of me started a fight with his lady passenger. After a lot of what appeared to be shouting and a lot of gesticulating with his arms, the driver suddenly slammed on his brakes in an apparent attempt to frighten his female companion.

I don't know what the manoeuvre did to his female companion, but I nearly wet myself as I realised what was happening and hit my own brakes.

Although the nice big 25 metre gap closed rapidly between "Petal" and the rear bumper of the car, I did manage to avoid a shunt, but only because the driver of the car (apparently still unaware of my existence and still fighting with his companion) accelerated away from me in the nick of time.

Since this event, being much more aware of potential idiots, I keep a longer distance between "Petal" and the vehicle in front and before a long drive, I test my brakes on the first bit of clear road I can find. up!

I advise others to do the same. allthumbz

Best regards,
drinksallround

by Peter Brown Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:39 am

Clever braking systems were introduced into light commercial vehicles much later than in cars and many AS models that are still running now will not have ABS.

Up till the '50's brakes were pretty ineffective over 30mph so you had to get down to 30 by slowing down through the gears. Once you started to get good brakes the advice (as it is now) was to slow down using the brakes. Brake shoes and pads are much cheaper to replace than a gearbox. Our current Mazda handbook specifically cautions against changing down in slippy conditions, instructing that the brakes be used.

As said before, weight does make a significant difference and anticipation is absolutely key - however good the brakes, I don't want flying cats!

The other really important point is the condition of the braking system, its all too easy to assume that in a relatively new van it will be good.

My Ford based Wilton had superb brakes with a feature I hated... If I braked hard it assumed it was an emergency and took over, braking harder and invoking the ABS (on a dry road). Just under 3 years old it had the rear axle replaced under warranty and developed a horrible squeal from the back on occasions. Long story, it wasn't the axle but the inner piston of one of the rear brakes only came out under heavy braking and then stuck out and caused the squealing for a few miles.

The current Merc was given an advisory on brake balance and rust on front disks during MOT at 4 yrs old and 23,000 miles. New front disks and pads sorted that and driving afterwards made me realise how much the braking performance had been improved.

by burlingtonboaby Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:49 am

As Peter mentions rust on brake discs, if your van has been sat for long periods the amount of rust can built up quickly, this will impair the braking performance .
I did have the wheels covered until the last batch of gales torn them to pieces .
Normally take the van for a good run and around here we have plenty of hills to run down and clean of the rust , brakes are good on the Sigma.
Boaby

by Peter Brown Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:01 am

Except when on a camp site for a week or two, the van is used at least twice a week all year and often more so the rusting in theory should be no worse than on the cars.

by dbroada Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:05 am

the vehicle mass DOES make a difference to the stopping distance. You can see this by observing motor racing, an F1 car (<700kg incl driver but without fuel) stops far quicker without fuel than with. I know other factors are influential here but mass is the big one. An F1 car also stops far quicker than a WEC car which are slightly faster and have better aerodynamics so should stop as quickly but are considerably heavier at about 900kg.

Like Daisy Mae I was taught to drive gently and while I didn't necessarily drive that way in my youth my obsession with fuel conservation has resulted in me rarely touching the brakes anything other than gently so I can't comment on being able to lock the wheels in a modern car. Servo assistance has reduced pedal feel and they are generally tuned to suit the vehicle.

I would suggest that you go to an MOT station that test vans and ask for a brake test. The rolling road will show how much pressure is being exerted by the MECHANICS of your van. If it passes that well it is the dynamics of the van causing your problems. The weight, where it is and weight transference during braking. The MOT tester should be able to give you an idea of what they would expect in other similar vehicles.

by dbroada Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:11 am

Dutto wrote:Since this event, being much more aware of potential idiots, I keep a longer distance between "Petal" and the vehicle in front

and doesn't it annoy you when somebody decides you don't need that much space so fills it with their pride and joy! censored!

Of course my 20 year old 2 ton van can stop as quickly as your flyweight car and I only need so much space to observe the view.

by Peter Brown Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:26 am

dbroada wrote:
and doesn't it annoy you when somebody decides you don't need that much space so fills it with their pride and joy!

Oh yes it most certainly does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Dutto Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:07 pm

dbroada wrote:
Dutto wrote:Since this event, being much more aware of potential idiots, I keep a longer distance between "Petal" and the vehicle in front
and doesn't it annoy you when somebody decides you don't need that much space so fills it with their pride and joy!

Of course my 20 year old 2 ton van can stop as quickly as your flyweight car and I only need so much space to observe the view.

I usually comment with "Oh look, I have a car that can go faster than your old motorhome!" (Much to the annoyance of SWMBO who has heard the phrase muttered many thousands of time now!!) Whistle1

I suppose it would annoy me more if I was going faster but I seldom exceed the 46mph that puts my revs right in the centre of the "economy" band on the tachometer. allthumbz

by moggyminor1966 Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:30 pm

I never rely on just the brakes and always anticipate the road ahead and use my gears to slow me down especially going down steep hills.

by Paul 300358 Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:21 pm

Ditto Mr Dutto up!

by finbar Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:52 pm

moggyminor1966 wrote:I never rely on just the brakes and always anticipate the road ahead and use my gears to slow me down especially going down steep hills.

Totally agree. It's also about being in the correct gear at the right time. allthumbz

finbar

by TeamRienza Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:17 am

I was taught, as many have commented, to use the gears for braking in tandem with reading the road (1970) I then went on to spend a few years as an ADI ( driving instructor) reading the road and being in the right gear at the right time are still my way of driving.

However my kids were taught by current (recent) instructors
Gears are for going,
Brakes for slowing.

I find this irritating as often they will arrive at a light in 4th gear to find the light changes! Wrong gear! Not ready to move fluently. There is also a habit nowadays of changing gears from 4th to 2nd directly, (example) whereas I still tend to use them sequentially.

Davy

by dbroada Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:29 am

TeamRienza wrote:However my kids were taught by current (recent) instructors
Gears are for going,
Brakes for slowing.

even so, there is no need to arrive at the junction with your nose on the windscreen. I tend to "lift & coast" with gentle braking and gear changes (although I do sometimes go from 4th to 2nd, even in the Smart with its "auto" box).

by burlingtonboaby Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:36 am

I was taught to down shift to slow the vehicle down then brake by Army instructors, abit of a pain having to double de clutch every time you changed.
The JAK brake (JACOB compression release engine brake) was a great assist when driving larger vehicles
After relocating down here I had a a days refresher behind the wheel, the instructor suggested I should use the JAK brake then the foot petal to slow the vehicle down before changing to the right gear before moving of.
Needless to say I went back to JAK braking and down shifting , wonder if our lighter vans would benefit from the JAK brake system.
Boaby

by chrisvesey Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:22 pm

We must have had different instructors, I learnt in an austin k9, a horrible beast which had no indicators, no self centering steering, 6 foot of bonnet to stick out at a junction before you could see if anything was coming and of course a non synchro gear box. On a downhill you were meant to slow down on the footbrake, apply the handbrake lightly to keep the speed down, change down and then release the handbrake, an aquired skill which I have probably lost,
Chris

Are our brakes really good enough?

Are our brakes really good enough?

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