Prospective purchase advice

Stevee1 wrote:Hi
Would be grateful for advice on anything I should be looking out for when viewing a 2014 Warwick XL 130BHP  ?

In my opinion if you are not reasonably well qualified to inspect a vehicle (and you are not a gambler!) then you should either buy from a dealer whom you like (probably a smaller independent) and who offers a fair and reasonable warranty, or you should engage the services of a professional vehicle inspection firm for a pre-purchase inspection. The words “pre-purchase” are important because they serve notice that you will be relying on the report to make a purchase decision.

Most inspection firms will quite reasonably limit their liability for errors and omissions, particularly latent defects, or (less reasonably) try and exclude liability altogether. No inspection and report can ever be fully comprehensive and totally accurate. Minor errors and omissions should be expected. However even if an inspector attempts to exclude E&O liability completely within their own T&C’s they would still be in great legal difficulty if a major and reasonably discoverable fault were to be found.

With complex motor homes I don’t think a full report can ever be expected to pick up everything, and you may realise from reading this forum that Autosleepers (and other brands) are not by any means pinnacles of engineering perfection. Also anything electrical or electronic can work one minute and not the next, and you must expect issues to arise here, particularly if the van has not been regularly used and “exercised.” You also have to remember that you are contemplating buying quite an old vehicle and cannot reasonably expect it to be in as-new condition, although you should be able to expect it to be roadworthy.

Given that you are talking about a panel van conversion where issues such as damp are less likely, and the next most likely bugbear which you can expect (or assume) will be electrics (see above) then it might be that a reasonable compromise would be to commission an inspection of the base vehicle only, perhaps backed up by a fresh MOT from an independent MOT specialist, not a repair garage. Perhaps £500 all in? Then self-insure the habitation aspects since most potential issues will be relatively minor.

WRT valuation the market, i.e. your fellow buyers, decides what something is worth in a willing buyer/willing seller situation, and all you can do is watch the market. I am sure the dealers all watch each other very closely (very easy to do now) when pricing their stock so forecourt prices can be a useful benchmark. If you are buying privately you will forego a warranty (as already mentioned) and you will also forego most options of recourse under legislation such as the Consumer Rights Act (unless perhaps criminality is involved). I would want to be saving at least 12 to 15 percent if buying privately, as seen, and perhaps half of that “saving” should be viewed as contingency repair funding, although hopefully you won’t need it.

Hi, we purchased a 2015 Warwick XL 18 months ago from a dealer it had 28000 on the clock we paid £48000 if you look on Auto trader the are around the £45000 mark the say you get a warranty but in my opinion not worth the paper it is written on nothing I tried to claim for was covered so I ended up paying out for lot's in the first year including both battery's. Offer£40000 see what he say's. Don't ask don't get. Kevin

In defence of some dealers we bought our van 18 months ago from Eden Motorhomes in Scorrier, Cornwall, and they were totally fair about the conduct of the warranty issues we had. 

Eden is a 5 star dealer. They did not quibble about any of the warranty issues and even though prices have dropped a little now we still feel that we got a good van and a very satisfactory deal.

They will also search for your chosen model :

 https://www.edenmotorhomes.co.uk/vehicle-sourcing/

I purchased mine from an old well established dealer with 2 depot’s a few friends have purchased from them but always new not pre owned. All my defects were classified as “ wear and tear” sorry not covered. The battery’s were supposed to have been checked when purchased then again 3 months later and I was told they were good but within 9 months it cost me for 2 batteries. Kevin

The Bargee wrote:In defence of some dealers we bought our van 18 months ago from Eden Motorhomes in Scorrier, Cornwall, and they were totally fair about the conduct of the warranty issues we had. 

Eden is a 5 star dealer. They did not quibble about any of the warranty issues and even though prices have dropped a little now we still feel that we got a good van and a very satisfactory deal.

They will also search for your chosen model :

 https://www.edenmotorhomes.co.uk/vehicle-sourcing/

But don’t expect them to keep their word about ringing you back unless they think you want to give them money!!! The owner, I’m afraid, hasn’t changed his ways since he was a Marquis manager. I thought he was better than that but I was wrong.

Our first van, a Symphony had an MB&G warranty. Within a couple of weeks it lost power to the point of not being able to even return it to the dealer. I contacted the dealer who suggested I use my local mechanic who diagnosed it as burnt out valve, MB&G said wear and tear, not covered, so I rang dealer who said leave it with us. All sorted , my mechanic did the work, dealer paid him, they got reimbursed by MB&G. Apparently its all about how you word claims. Things that start to go wrong are refused due to wear and tear, items which suddenly fail are paid out, things need to break not wear out. 
Second van was from dealer who gave his own warranty,  everything covered no quibbles even extended his usual 3 months to 6 months as I bought late autumn and was unlikely to get much use over winter, only one warranty issue sorted no problem.
Third van (currant one) had another of the insurance backed warranties,  can't remember the name but couple of issues were sorted through the dealer. That's where I think you need to go with those warranties as they know how to word claims.

Absolutely right Paul. Insurance underwriters' brains are tuned to expect to see a definable "Incident." They are also well aware that, just as an example, batteries are a consumable item that has a finite life and can be damaged by inadvertent incorrect usage or other factors which are beyond their control. My take on an in-house dealer warranty such as that offered by Eden is that they guarantee to deliver the vehicle in a serviceable condition, subsequent wear and tear excluded, and on a used vehicle I feel that their six month warranty is a reasonable limitation on their liability. That should be ample time to discover any defects that had been present (or in the case of your burnt out valve "brewing") at the point of sale.

Hi everyone 
Just an update having spoken to two different lpg gas tank installers both told me the underslung gas tank  should be changed when they reach 10 years old as that is how long they are certified for , cost to replace anything from £400 to £1000 . 
I have decided not to purchase the van I have been looking at as  cannot purchase it cheap enough considering the work needed so will keep looking for the right one , maybe wait till after the budget in October to see how much more  the motorists are going to be fleeced .

Probably the right decision Steve.

We have an expression - 'if in doubt, don't '.  You've just followed that.

Good luck finding a van.

I also have an expression if in doubt leave it out

It is a timing chain ,
I decided not to purchase the van as the owner doesn’t think the log tank needs replacing so will not adjust the price to reflect the cost of replacement, anyway we weren’t struck on the green interior so will wait till after the budget as not desperate for one now .
Thanks to everyone for advice
Steve

I haven't gone into it in any detail but from everything I have read, including on this Forum, it should (must?) be replaced every 10 years regardless of corrosion.  It surprises me that the owner contests this.

Hi
I sent him the information from different websites & told him i spoke to two different companies who said they must be replaced as they are only certified for 10 years & he said it’s only cos they want to sell new tanks , anyhow not having had any  hab checks has put me off despite the low miles& nice condition of van .
Steve

Stevee1 wrote:Hi
I sent him the information from different websites & told him i spoke to two different companies who said they must be replaced as they are only certified for 10 years & he said it’s only cos they want to sell new tanks , anyhow not having had any  hab checks has put me off despite the low miles& nice condition of van .
Steve

It’s a difficult one really. There will be many people who own a camper van/motorhome who aren’t on forums so won’t know this. Plus I’m not sure what the law demands; they say it’s not certified after 10 years but what does that even mean? I’m not arguing against it, I’ve just replaced my tank (13 years old).

As regards habitation checks, there are those who swear by them and there are also many (on here) who never have them done. Interestingly when I bought this van from a large very well known dealer, the sale included a habitation check which wasn’t worth the paper it wasn’t written on. 

It depends on your experience. If you’ve owned vans before you can probably do all the checks you need when buying, plus know what to look for. If not, it’s really helpful if you can take somebody experienced with you. 

Having nearly been ripped off by a previous private seller, I would only buy from a dealer, with some form of warranty. But I know others who have done private purchases successfully, many times.

The tank replacement is a tricky one. There is no company in the UK who will test and certify a tank. My van is now 14 years old, I've had it for 7 years. I have mine examined and a thorough gas test done on all appliances every year by a former Gasit agent. The Gasit name is now owned by Autogas2000 in Thirsk who has for years quoted industry best practice of replacing tanks. If you look at his website you will see many examples of corroded tanks. Mine in the words of the agent I use 'is a good as the day it was fitted' but with the absence of any date impressed in the tank he doesn't know exactly how old it is, he thinks it may have been replaced before I bought it which would mean the original can't have been more than 7 years old. There is certainly no legislation that tanks must be replaced after 10 years  that is only the opinion of the lpg industry.

Caraman wrote:I haven't gone into it in any detail but from everything I have read, including on this Forum, it should (must?) be replaced every 10 years regardless of corrosion.  It surprises me that the owner contests this.

I know this thread has really finished but following on from my point above, if the owner had had an annual habitation service, this would have been picked up.  Not to have had a habitation service for 7 years, which means the gas system hasn't been checked/serviced for 7 years, is close to negligence in my opinion.  Surely everyone has their gas boiler at home serviced every year and a motorhome is a far more hostile environment for gas than a house.

Caraman wrote:I know this thread has really finished but following on from my point above, if the owner had had an annual habitation service, this would have been picked up.  Not to have had a habitation service for 7 years, which means the gas system hasn't been checked/serviced for 7 years, is close to negligence in my opinion.  Surely everyone has their gas boiler at home serviced every year and a motorhome is a far more hostile environment for gas than a house.

I absolutely agree.  Didn't want to influence Steve too much, but I would not have gone near a motorhome that had not been looked at and tested at regular intervals.  The low mileage was a problem for me too - vehicles are designed to be used.

I hear those who say habitation services are not needed and haven't had it done, but all the habitation checks I have had done over decades, on multiple vehicles, have proved useful and at times highlighted issues.  It's a personal view.

Caraman wrote:

Caraman wrote:I haven't gone into it in any detail but from everything I have read, including on this Forum, it should (must?) be replaced every 10 years regardless of corrosion.  It surprises me that the owner contests this.

I know this thread has really finished but following on from my point above, if the owner had had an annual habitation service, this would have been picked up.  Not to have had a habitation service for 7 years, which means the gas system hasn't been checked/serviced for 7 years, is close to negligence in my opinion.  Surely everyone has their gas boiler at home serviced every year and a motorhome is a far more hostile environment for gas than a house.

Do you think homeowners get their boilers checked because they are aware of the H&S risks, or is it simply because they hope it will prevent it breaking down in the future.

Rocky wrote:

Caraman wrote:I know this thread has really finished but following on from my point above, if the owner had had an annual habitation service, this would have been picked up.  Not to have had a habitation service for 7 years, which means the gas system hasn't been checked/serviced for 7 years, is close to negligence in my opinion.  Surely everyone has their gas boiler at home serviced every year and a motorhome is a far more hostile environment for gas than a house.

I absolutely agree.  Didn't want to influence Steve too much, but I would not have gone near a motorhome that had not been looked at and tested at regular intervals.  The low mileage was a problem for me too - vehicles are designed to be used.

I hear those who say habitation services are not needed and haven't had it done, but all the habitation checks I have had done over decades, on multiple vehicles, have proved useful and at times highlighted issues.  It's a personal view.

Would you consider one that hadn’t had habitation checks, but then had one completed independently before the sale?

Sally, I don't think I would have got that far.  

With that mileage, and no tests for seven years, I would have walked away quite quickly.  If it only did 1500 - 2000 miles a year and sat still lots of the time, that rings alarm bells over mechanical issues, and the lack of regular checks smacks of an owner who just couldn't be bothered, or was trying to save money.  Both of those also ring alarm bells.

As I said to Steve, when buying secondhand you need to think about risk - that's what this thread has been about.  It needs to be quantified and assessed in the cold light of day, and this is what Steve did.

I wouldn’t necessarily agree on the hab check issue. The fact that a van hasn’t got a record of official hab checks doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been well maintained by a careful and competent owner.

There are many people around with the skills to maintain the different aspects of the hab unit - carpentry, plumbing, electrical and gas knowledge and that’s about all it takes. It’s not a case of Jack of all trades etc either because old fashioned training apprenticeships used to cover multi trades within engineering. Personally, I’d rather trust someone with that sort of background than the 'technicians' employed by M*rq**s. Still, we each have our views.

Tinwheeler wrote:I wouldn’t necessarily agree on the hab check issue. The fact that a van hasn’t got a record of official hab checks doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been well maintained by a careful and competent owner.

There are many people around with the skills to maintain the different aspects of the hab unit - carpentry, plumbing, electrical and gas knowledge and that’s about all it takes. It’s not a case of Jack of all trades etc either because old fashioned training apprenticeships used to cover multi trades within engineering. Personally, I’d rather trust someone with that sort of background than the 'technicians' employed by M*rq**s. Still, we each have our views.

When I had caravans, once they were out of warranty I did all the servicing myself but I wasn't competent to do the gas so every couple of years I treated them to a professional service which of course included the gas.  Its possible the owner did much the same and had a friend who did the gas but if so the owner would have known about changing the tank after 10-years.

Caraman wrote:

Tinwheeler wrote:I wouldn’t necessarily agree on the hab check issue. The fact that a van hasn’t got a record of official hab checks doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been well maintained by a careful and competent owner.

There are many people around with the skills to maintain the different aspects of the hab unit - carpentry, plumbing, electrical and gas knowledge and that’s about all it takes. It’s not a case of Jack of all trades etc either because old fashioned training apprenticeships used to cover multi trades within engineering. Personally, I’d rather trust someone with that sort of background than the 'technicians' employed by M*rq**s. Still, we each have our views.

When I had caravans, once they were out of warranty I did all the servicing myself but I wasn't competent to do the gas so every couple of years I treated them to a professional service which of course included the gas.  Its possible the owner did much the same and had a friend who did the gas but if so the owner would have known about changing the tank after 10-years.

That just might be the difference between someone qualified/competent to work on mains gas and someone with an LPG ticket. You followed the well given advice of getting someone who knows how to do the bits you didn’t feel happy to tackle.