Warwick XL heating system

Paulmold wrote:
Having same system as you Sally, I would expect the leisure battery to be dead by the morning. I wouldn't want to try it. That's why we always use hook up from October through to April. We use a lot of THSs and rallies without electric between April to October when hopefully we don't need heating.

Thank you Paul. It’s something I’ve not really thought about before, but it does make sense. I’ll avoid it if it happens.

Sally wrote:Mines a different system, but I must admit I never thought about the fan running. I have a truma Combi 4E and have a 100W panel with MPPT dual controller. I don’t usually go off grid but if I did, would running the heater on gas overnight cause an issue with the leisure battery? It would be on the thermostat so not constant.

You might be able to replenish the leisure battery sufficiently each day from solar to at least survive several days before it becomes an issue, I would have thought. Depending on the weather, and other things taking power, of course. One or two nights shouldn't be a problem, I've done that myself with the standard panel and controller. A week without moving, perhaps might be a problem. But bear in mind with a lead acid leisure battery you shouldn't discharge it lower than 50% for long life, so if it's 100 Ah, you've only got 50 Ah to play with. If the battery voltage falls as low as 12.3V (with all loads switched off), it's half discharged.

I normally avoid EHU as I don't really need it. But if it's below zero overnight, I do seek it out for simplicity!

When I'm on a metered EHU I'm determined to use as little mains as I can so with everything running on gas I turn the mains charger off during the day to maximise use of the solar and if I can I turn the Truma off.  In the winter though the charger and Truma go back on at night.

Sally wrote:Mines a different system, but I must admit I never thought about the fan running. I have a truma Combi 4E and have a 100W panel with MPPT dual controller. I don’t usually go off grid but if I did, would running the heater on gas overnight cause an issue with the leisure battery? It would be on the thermostat so not constant.

Sally
from doing my mods fitting a dual mppt controller 2 batteries to have the correct power to run my inverter .i have the heating on put on the water tank heater if it gets very cold for a short time just to put heat in the water to stop any damage and my tanks have insulation. even in the winter if i check the solar at mid day has gone to float charge. i boil my kettle ref 12v or a 240v off the inverter. when you make changes as to what you want i do it to get the best i can .as to the solar the correct wires not having the amount of joints as to the sargent wiring is . i dont go round the m25 before the power gets from the panel to the battery the cables go the best and most short way they can be fitted. before i fit what says is a mppt i test to make sure it is before i fit it for people as lot say they are mppt but when i look at them they have no means of cooling as a mppt needs as to what is used inside. the sargent what was said is a mppt i would want to test before i could say it is a mppt and as v8oholic has posted he has also only just changed the solar control so the same as changing the oil and putting a better grade. i ask he please reads the ec700 post by marconi that explains the need for the mod and the drain when wired in the sargent system. also in the trade we say if you dont sort a small problem it will not go away it becomes a big problem and with all the solar mods i do for people none have any problem turning off the ec500 or ec700 to stop the  .3 amp drain and now the daul mppt will keep the batteries charged and give a better life before needing to be replaced.
i do use 240v mains just to cool the fridge that i put on the day before i leave but thats all.
so if you dont have solar or have only got what i call the sales person solar solar you will run the battery down.
if you have got a solar to run all year as i have can say i dont run out of power

I'm well aware of the current drain from the EC700, at about 7 Ah per day, but i don't see it as that big a deal when you're using the van. I mean, it only takes 2.5 hours of solar charge to run it for 24 hours, even with just the standard panel, in March. Half that in the summer with the simple change to an MPPT controller. Plus I have a 20A DC-DC charger, and will have more capacity anyway from lithium when I change the battery. It will work fine for me.

v8oholic wrote:I'm well aware of the current drain from the EC700, at about 7 Ah per day, but i don't see it as that big a deal when you're using the van. I mean, it only takes 2.5 hours of solar charge to run it for 24 hours, even with just the standard panel, in March. Half that in the summer with the simple change to an MPPT controller. Plus I have a 20A DC-DC charger, and will have more capacity anyway from lithium when I change the battery. It will work fine for me.

will the 80w panel keep the batteries charged and the drain from the sargent system with the low light hours in the winter NO and to say in 2.5 hours so please dont think it will and now damage your batteries and cost more money as lots do when they put the camper in storage . this is the reason to read the ec700 post as i had said.
 i fitted a lot of solar panels last year the most i have ever done in a year and nearly all for campers that had now damaged the batteries from been told they have solar and will keep the batteries charged but did not and most had the sargent system. i want to save people money. what people do on there own camper is up to them but putting information that is not correct is not good for the forum and ends up costing people money from poor information

Glyne - as I have said before, many battery flattening problems are caused by folk not shutting down their EC700 when the van is out of use and not on an EHU over the winter period.  If they shutdown their EC700 the 80W panel will keep the VB fully charged throughout the year.  Only the LB will slowly discharge but it should be fine for 3 months if it was fully charged to start with.  If the dual battery MPPT modification is done, both batteries will be kept fully charged throughout year but only if the EC700 is shutdown.  The justification for fitting additional solar panels is to improve the off-grid capability when the EC700 can't be shutdown.  Fit enough panels and I don't doubt the van can be used throughout the year off-grid.

Caraman wrote:Glyne - as I have said before, many battery flattening problems are caused by folk not shutting down their EC700 when the van is out of use and not on an EHU over the winter period.  If they shutdown their EC700 the 80W panel will keep the VB fully charged throughout the year.  Only the LB will slowly discharge but it should be fine for 3 months if it was fully charged to start with.  If the dual battery MPPT modification is done, both batteries will be kept fully charged all year but only if the EC700 is shutdown.

yes you do keep saying this and is not correct.
even when they have been shutting down the ec500 or ec700 i go out and end up fitting new batteries as they have damaged the batteries and even when they should have been able to claim as for the age have gone below the voltage to make a claim 
just a 80w panel a lot of the time in the winter will not even be  getting 12.8 volts and is the reason people that did the solar mod also fitted a 2nd panel and i also explained the best way to wire to over come this problem 
you keep saying should be fine  for 3 months and to any trade person that read this  say another jack and jill story and going to cost people money but more call outs to sort more money for us. you keep  putting clearly what you read in other places but is only any help if what you have read was correct. others then read more incorrect information and post it in other places i see this lots and see the people here on this forum that are doing it.
my batteries will last up to 10 years and that is after also using a inverter but my solar is putting the batteries back to full amp storage and not just what many think is full as the volts look ok and the life now gets much shorter. when you think you have fully charged batteries if i put my tester could show you that they are not full as you may think and keep posting . a voltage will not say the battery is full to the correct storage amps as lots think on the forum

glyne lock wrote:will the 80w panel keep the batteries charged and the drain from the sargent system with the low light hours in the winter NO and to say in 2.5 hours so please dont think it will and now damage your batteries and cost more money as lots do when they put the camper in storage . this is the reason to read the ec700 post as i had said.

The answer to that question is YES it will keep the batteries charged in March. Based on real experience, despite what you seem to think. It has been off EHU for a month now, and both batteries are still fully charged, and before lunchtime each day. It won't in December or January, but I just plug it into the mains anyway for those two months, so who cares?

Glyne - what I have said is based on my experience with the EC700 both before and after the solar regulator modification.  It is also supported by the measurements and calculations I have carried out. The regulator modification is generally a good thing to do but definitely if you want to store the van without use for more than 3 months not on an EHU.  The additional solar panels are only needed if you want to extend the off-grid season noting that v8oholic has found his 80W panel generates enough power for off-grid use in March, which I haven’t tried.

I’m sure that adding panels and bypassing the Sargent system is necessary for a minority of users. But I don’t believe it’s the only solution, nor do I believe it’s what everyone automatically must do. And if you’re going as far as modifying the van so you can run most of the systems with the EC500/700 switched off, well why even buy an Auto-Sleeper in the first place? Each to their own. I won’t be doing that. I think it works pretty well for my needs. I’ve already done 30-day trips without using EHU at all, and that was before changing the controller and adding the B2B. The idea that the standard solar setup is only good enough to tick some boxes for the sales people is laughable. Sure, it doesn’t do everything. Can you live off grid in your van in December and January? No. Do most customers even use their van off grid in December and January? Also no. I can make small improvements by changing the controller and adding battery capacity, perhaps even a 100W panel instead of the standard 80W, but nothing further is required. For me.

A voltage will not say a battery is fully charged .it’s a help but a crank amp tester will and is what  needid to test so what you say and think is like others say is not correct .what you say you have done or read is a guide but that’s all 
So again a good jack and Jill story
Damage your batteries but put information that will help others that is correct and not cost people money
yes i can use my camper all year and do so even in January so more incorrect think post
i find this some of the best times away in the camper and is the reason for mods like my water tanks so it can be used 
clearly you cant as you need to charge on the mains

It must surely be pretty obvious to anyone that multiplying 2.4A by 3 hours is greater than the 7 Ah drain caused by the EC700 per day. But sure, stick to your theory that you know best, so it can’t be working. Even though it is.

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glyne lock wrote:A voltage will not say a battery is fully charged .it’s a help but a crank amp tester will and is what  needid to test so what you say and think is like others say is not correct.what you say you have done or read is a guid but that’s all 
So again a good jack and Jill story
Damage your batteries but put information that will help others that is correct and not cost people money

No offence intended but there are only two ways to establish the level of charge in a lead Acid battery. One is to measure the specific gravity of the electrolyte and the other is to measure the voltage of each cell at rest. Modern methods are good but they are only a guess using an algorithm to calculate level of charge.

v8oholic wrote:It must surely be pretty obvious to anyone that multiplying 2.4A by 3 hours is greater than the 7 Ah drain caused by the EC700 per day. But sure, stick to your theory that you know best, so it can’t be working. Even though it is.

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so you now say you put on mans if solar was working so good what would you need to do that for. 
you said 2.5 hours of solar charge whats the time in the picture and with the amps showing is clearly not fully charged so not correct what you have said again
2.4 amps  if you had fully charged would a mppt be now showing 2.4 amps NO just another thing for you to read and learn about
i have not tested the solar control that you showed that sargent sale and says is a mppt but lots say are mppt but when tested are not and i could not see the cooling required to be a mppt but i can only say when i have tested one
what lots think is a fully charged battery as to the voltage is only a guide .a crank amp tester is needid and will show as to what the amps should be at full in the battery
in the winter a lot of the time with low light will not even get above 12.8 volt with just 1 panel 
i have NOTE  NOT said i mod the camper to run most of the system in  the camper  with the ec500 or ec700 turned off so now you are not looking good with more incorrect jack and jill story time
with the mods i have done can use my camper off grid all year and have plenty of power .i only ever fit monocrystalline panels not the panels as A/S have fitted for cost saving again
after over 45 years working in the trade have got the correct tools to do what test need doing and give correct information as required . i dont read things and hope they are correct post on a forum and cost people money as is done and is not good for the forum

For goodness sake, just agree to disagree.

Peter Brown wrote:

No offence intended but there are only two ways to establish the level of charge in a lead Acid battery. One is to measure the specific gravity of the electrolyte and the other is to measure the voltage of each cell at rest. Modern methods are good but they are only a guess using an algorithm to calculate level of charge.

so a sealed battery ? this is old and out of date and no help Peter
this is not an offence but things have changed Peter and the training you now get and the new test gear is used only not old ways that you clearly think .
i have posted a test the voltage was 12.6 but only a very small amp and as soon as i put just a bulb for a small load lost the volts 
so what you are saying is no offence but what was done  is no longer and not what is required to test a battery and will not give the charge power held in the battery

I think it is me that v8oholic is referring to Glyne, in respect of not using the eC700. I have almost completely bypassed my unit.

 I came from a 2006 caravan with switches, and naively never expected to be totally reliant on a computerised control system. Boy what a learning curve! The whole habitation system can be disabled by a minor electronic glitch! Ludicrous! That is what happened to us first trip out in January 23. It’s absolutely fine by me for someone to say that the system works well “for us”, and that is great so long as it keeps on doing so, but I like to be able to fix things when they go wrong, so the thing that works for me is reliable and easily repairable technology, which is switches thank you. 

I don’t need the gimmicks either. I am perfectly capable of turning the outside light on and off, or shoving a water hose in a filler hole occasionally.

And yes, if I had known then what I know now I would probably not have bought an Autosleeper, or an Auto Trail, or indeed almost any of the commercial conversions. I would have built my own, just as I have spent a lifetime personally building and converting boats and barges up to 100’ in length. If I have another van I will certainly be converting it myself.

As I have said before I believe that AS conversions are satisfactory value for money and perfectly adequate for many people’s purposes, but they are really not very clever at all. If you are quality conscious or that little bit more demanding you need to spend rather more, or build it yourself if you have the skills.

Sorry, duplication.

But since I am still here I would add that I am with Peter on battery condition. Measure the SG! I never buy sealed batteries.

thank you Bargee
others have done like you have done to the ec500 and ec700 to help as to what they want to improve the camper but like lots of talk v8oholic has said looks to any person reading it as a reply to myself and another incorrect jack and jill story and i had not said that .this clearly is not looking good for a person that thinks he is right from what he has said .i did want to help with some of what he had posted had a problem . but clearly not someone you can help as to his poor talk
i had better check my power i want power to work the heater tonight  to stay warm
been a mod man i have got a better battery as to the vehicle battery then you need and is not lead acid so could not be tested as Peter is saying and even most lead acid are sealed so we have to move on .what is fitted to most cars as to the stop start been used more and more .with all the vehicles i have none have the lead acid all agm . i only ever liked to fit batteries i could check the levels and is hard to not be able to do now with so many batteries

This is the last thing I have to say on the subject. Resting voltage after hours of darkness.

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I do find it strange that Autisleepers sell a van, using LPG as an alternative to EHU. But if you use it without EHU, even with a small solar panel, some feel it could flatten the leisure battery overnight. They don’t mention that when selling them!

Most current caravans and motorhomes are the same.

Peter Brown wrote:Most current caravans and motorhomes are the same.

True, I meant suppliers rather than specifically Autosleepers. It’s a strange sales pitch “please note this comes with gas so that you can run it when you’re not on EHU but the recommendation is to only use it if you’re on EHU”

I strongly suspect that’s not mentioned during the sale 

Sally wrote:
True, I meant suppliers rather than specifically Autosleepers. It’s a strange sales pitch “please note this comes with gas so that you can run it when you’re not on EHU but the recommendation is to only use it if you’re on EHU”

I strongly suspect that’s not mentioned during the sale 

When we were shopping for our current van at the NEC in 2018 I visited the Autotrail stand and saw a van that was similar to the Nuevo we have now.  It had a Truma S heater:

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which was similar to the heaters I had had on my previous 3 caravans.  I commented to the salesman that it looked a bit old fashioned compared to the Truma Combi.  His retort was you need 12V to operate the Truma Combi but not the Truma S.  The fan may not work without 12V to circulate the warm air but it will still generate heat with gas and/or mains electricity.  I am sure its a lot more reliable than the Combi and much cheaper to repair.  

Its down to customer choice in the end.