Best way to leave control panel

Hi there everyone, need some wisdom on best way to leave control panel on 2021 Kingham in storage .

Went to check on above today and both vehicle and leisure battery flat as a pancake . Have been going every week since coming back from France late December and all ticketyboo . Not this week ! RAC man came and started vehicle battery and then told me that it needed to be hooked up to electric to charge it properly or drive it for 50O miles , otherwise it won’t start again and they won’t come out again for same problem . 
The only thing I did differently after I checked it last week was to not switch the control panel shut down switch on .   What to do ?

The immediate answer is that by not isolating the leisure battery (by not turning the shut down switch off) your leisure battery has discharged because something has been left on in the van. I say “immediate answer” because it is probably not the full answer.

In my life with boats the norm has been that the domestic and engine batteries have been separated, by split charge relays or blocking diodes, so that if the leisure batteries run flat the engine (or in this case the vehicle) battery does not run flat. However you are reporting that the vehicle battery has also gone flat, which should not be the case because in any sensible scenario the vehicle battery should be isolated from the domestic or habitation electrics. In simple terms when you park up at night and switch the engine off you should not be able to run both batteries flat by excess use of the lights and tv. The vehicle battery should be isolated and should not discharge however much you exercise the habitation electrics, hence you can start the engine and then everything should charge up. The vehicle battery should also be no different to any car in that when the ignition is turned off there should be minimal loads on the battery, probably just the alarm system and radio memory etc. The vehicle battery will gradually discharge due to these small loads mentioned plus natural self-discharge but in any normal automotive system you should be able to leave the vehicle for perhaps a month at least without undue discharge provided that the battery is good, just as you might leave your car at the airport.

So assuming that the EC700 control unit includes the electronic equivalent of a split charge relay or blocking diode your vehicle battery should not have run flat, unless of course the VB is dud.

I am a new Kingham owner and am grappling with understanding the EC700 control system. Despite reading the instructions numerous times I am not a lot wiser! That is from someone who has spent a lifetime building and maintaining boats with all sorts of quite complex electrical (but not electronic) systems.

I think one simple question is exactly how and what is isolated by the EC700 unit? Which battery runs the tracker? I have read that if the EC700 is shut down then either the vehicle battery or the habitation battery is not charged by solar. Does anybody have a definitive answer on that? Are you charging on solar or stored under cover?

Another question could be how exactly are the batteries charged? If the EC700 simply links them in parallel when the engine is running or the charger is plugged in then a high resistance in a dud vehicle battery could prevent the leisure batteries reaching a fully charged state (and vice versa).

Returning to the original question, and presuming that the EC700 does include an effective battery isolation system, then my first thought would be to get the vehicle battery condition tested. I always think that if you get two years out of a standard vehicle battery then you are doing OK, and if your 2021 vehicle may have been standing for a while then that may not have helped. If the VB is dud then it may have implications for the whole charging system, but that depends upon how it works, so I am hoping that other forum members may offer some further info. to guide both of us.

Hi Bargee , thank you so much for your long and helpful answer even though we both remain intrigued ! The vehicle is kept in uncovered secure storage nearby and I do go and check on it every couple of weeks and normally both batteries are reporting good levels due to the solar panel . The reason I do this is because my previous van , an Autocruise was continually showing a flat vehicle battery , despite an upgraded solar panel and despite a brand new vehicle battery. 
That problem was eventually sorted and fixed by finding out that the solar panel was never connected to the vehicle battery in the first place . 
Hence my anxiety about this one ! I did check when I bought it a year ago when it was a year old and the seller told me it was but I have never been exactly sure because when I was looking to buy a different brand new van I was told that the manufacturers were not allowed by law to to connect the solar panel to the vehicle battery . 

Anyway the upshot is it is now with the guys who do the hab check who hopefully are going to find out what happened and fix it . 

I will report back . One other thing that came to mind , the rac man told me to always check at what position I remove the van key from the engine because it can be removed whilst the engine is still live .
Hence the little sticker on my dash re batteries which I had never understood. .  The mystery deepens !

I suggest that you read carefully the Sargent instruction manual appropriate to your van. It gives a lot of helpful background information. Then do a search for flat batteries on this forum. It is a recurrent problem and particularly difficult when your van is in storage with no access to EHU. On modern motorhomes batteries will both discharge within at most 8 weeks, particularly in winter unless charged. RAC man's 500 miles to recharge is excessive - 50 miles should do pretty well. But even that is not practical. I do suggest that you buy a Chinese charger from Amazon that has a reconditioning setting. The Sargent may refuse to charge a battery that is totally flat. Finally, I think the comparison with boating electrics above could be misleading.

Thank you Inspiredron. We don’t actually have a significant problem as yet with our van having changed the VB. I just want to try and understand the system! As such I am politely intrigued by your comment that my reference to marine systems could be misleading. My comments were purely on the question of split charging, which surely are apposite in either scenario.

If you shut down the EC700 using the switch on the main unit (not the control panel) all solar charge goes to the vehicle starter battery which will be kept in good condition unless the panel is covered by snow or fog for several days.

There is a fuse near the +ve terminal of the leisure battery and I would recommend removing that when the vehicle is being stored.

Its no good worrying whether any systems are shut down as they will be shut down anyway when the battery goes flat.

If it’s stored outside, we’re perhaps past the point in the year now where it should matter too much if it’s on or off. I turned mine back on at the beginning of February, and it’s been on ever since, and both batteries are still fully charged just from the standard solar setup. It’s only December and January that are a problem for me. If it’s under cover, then yes it should be switched off.

Peter Brown wrote:...

There is a fuse near the +ve terminal of the leisure battery and I would recommend removing that when the vehicle is being stored.

...

Not with the EC700 as even when the EC700 is shutdown the tracker takes a very small current from the LB.  If the LB is disconnected, which will happen if its in-line fuse is removed, the manned tracking centre in Bedford will ring the owner if the owner is paying for the Sargent tracker subscription service.  It will also force the tracker to use its non-rechargeable standby battery which it apparently can do for up to 3 years but it will shorten the standby battery's life.

Peter Brown wrote:If you shut down the EC700 using the switch on the main unit (not the control panel) all solar charge goes to the vehicle starter battery which will be kept in good condition unless the panel is covered by snow or fog for several days.

There is a fuse near the +ve terminal of the leisure battery and I would recommend removing that when the vehicle is being stored.

Its no good worrying whether any systems are shut down as they will be shut down anyway when the battery died and goes flat.

Thanks Peter, useful comments.

Our previous caravans were stored on the drive and I finally adopted the practice of disconnecting the battery when not in use. It was costing too much replacing batteries which had run dead flat and I didn’t like leaving the charger connected all the time. The alarm, radio etc were all slowly discharging the battery so it was much easier to just disconnect everything.

The new Kingham is also parked outside on the drive and it is no issue to keep it plugged in but I would prefer not to. My day job is investigating marine insurance claims and many of the fires that I attend are the result of melt downs in electronic devices such as chargers and dehumidifiers so I am wary of leaving anything powered up but unattended.

With systems such as EC700 I accept that these should fail safe as the battery discharges, but given what you say that the solar will keep the vehicle battery topped up I am inclined to simply fit a master switch on the hab battery so that it can easily be turned off (but yes, same effect as pulling the fuse). The next stage might be to fit an easily accessible master switch on the vehicle battery to make it easy to isolate that as well but we have to wait and see what the usage pattern is. I suspect the van might be used more regularly than the caravans were so the VB might look after itself.

If that causes the tracker to use it’s stand by battery then is that such a bad thing? To be honest I am still debating whether to bother with the tracker subscription. Our last two caravans had trackers and they were a pain in the proverbial for false alerts so we gave  up on them and have relied since on good wheel clamps.

Our boat (kept in Europe) sometimes goes months without being attended, indeed recently a full year when we couldn’t get to it during lock down, but everything electrical is left disconnected, shore power cable pulled and master switches off, and we never have a problem with self discharge or flat batteries. 

My question might have been “are there any consequences to disconnecting the EC700 for significant periods of time” but if you advocate pulling the fuse then the answer would seem to be no.

The Bargee - Peter may respond but I don't think he has the EC700.  I have a 2019 van with the EC700.  With the standard solar setup you can safely shutdown the EC700 when the van is out of use on your drive.  I do it all the time.  This will result in all the solar charge going to your VB which I have found is sufficient to keep it fully charged during the winter.  Providing your LB is fully charged to start with and in good nick it will be fine without charge for at least 3 months.  The drain from the tracker on the LB is only about 10mA.  So there is no need to keep your van connected to an EHU whilst it is out of use.  You can monitor your LB voltage under Locate on AS Monitor when the EC700 is shutdown.  If you think the LB could do with top up you can charge it with the PX300 for a few hours without turning the EC700 back on.

You mention disconnecting the VB.  I am sure your van is the same as mine and on the ignition will have a red tag/button.  If you activate this when you remove the ignition key the VB will disconnect from its earth after a few minutes, effectively shutting down the vehicle electrics.  This is explained in the Peugeot handbook.  However, if you have a vehicle alarm and you arm it, it is likely to be triggered when the disconnect takes place.  So you will not be able to arm your alarm.  It will also stop any solar charge from reaching the VB.

Winterisation is referred to on page 10-4 of the A-S owner's manual.  The 2018 version (pre-EC700) refers to the VB red isolation switch but the 2021 version (EC700) doesn't as there is no need to use it with the EC700.  This is because when the EC500 is shutdown the solar charge goes to the LB rather than the VB.

You mention stopping your tracker subscription.  There are several sad and recent stories on this Forum from members who have had their motorhome stolen.  I don't know if they had a tracker or not but I would think carefully before stopping it.  The subscription is competitive with other Thatcham approved trackers.

Caraman wrote:The Bargee - Peter may respond but I don't think he has the EC700.  I have a 2019 van with the EC700.  With the standard solar setup you can safely shutdown the EC700 when the van is out of use on your drive.  I do it all the time.  This will result in all the solar charge going to your VB which I have found is sufficient to keep it fully charged during the winter.  Providing your LB is fully charged to start with and in good nick it will be fine without charge for at least 3 months.  The drain from the tracker on the LB is only about 10mA.  So there is no need to keep your van connected to an EHU whilst it is out of use.  You can monitor your LB voltage under Locate on AS Monitor when the EC700 is shutdown.  If you think the LB could do with top up you can charge it with the PX300 for a few hours without turning the EC700 back on.

You mention disconnecting the VB.  I am sure your van is the same as mine and on the ignition will have a red tag/button.  If you activate this when you remove the ignition key the VB will disconnect from its earth after a few minutes, effectively shutting down the vehicle electrics.  This is explained in the Peugeot handbook.  However, if you have a vehicle alarm and you arm it, it is likely to be triggered when the disconnect takes place.  So you will not be able to arm your alarm.  It will also stop any solar charge from reaching the VB.

Winterisation is referred to on page 10-4 of the A-S owner's manual.  The 2018 version (pre-EC700) refers to the VB red isolation switch but the 2021 version (EC700) doesn't as there is no need to use it with the EC700.  This is because when the EC500 is shutdown the solar charge goes to the LB rather than the VB.

You mention stopping your tracker subscription.  There are several sad and recent stories on this Forum from members who have had their motorhome stolen.  I don't know if they had a tracker or not but I would think carefully before stopping it.  The subscription is competitive with other Thatcham approved trackers.

That seems like a whole lot of good sense thanks Caraman. Have just got in from Belgium so will read in more detail later when in a mental state to absorb, but I was indeed wondering what that red tag on the ignition was. I had rather come to the conclusion that I don’t have to plug in when stored up but thanks for the reassurance.

I’m not stopping my tracker subscription, I have just not as yet confirmed with the selling dealer that a tracker is indeed fitted (I guess it is) or what the subscription status is (probably expired!). I will then probably take the sensible decision, but I had a lot of problems with Metis trackers some years ago in caravans, which seemed like a total waste of money. Perhaps they are better now? It’s on the list, but for the moment it is Sold Secure locked with wheel clamp and steering lock so the insurers are happy, not that one of my cordless grinders wouldn’t get through those in minutes of course!

Caraman ,  could you explain how the red tag is activated ? Sounds alarming if it can stop the solar charging the BV

Its called Battery Standby System

Switch engine off with key in STOP position

Press red button and turn key to BATT position 

Remove key

7 minutes later a click will be heard from the VB as a solenoid circuit breaker operates above the negative terminal

The 7 minutes is to allow the driver and passengers time to leave the vehicle and for the central locking to be used to lock it.  After 7 minutes the central locking will no longer operate and an armed vehicle alarm if fitted will probably be triggered.  

Re-entry to the vehicle is by key through the driver's door.  Inserting the key backing the ignition and turning it will take it out of standby.  The vehicle electrics go through a series of checks before its OK to drive.

I've experimented with it on my drive and on one occasion accidentally put it into standby when I removed the ignition key rather carelessly

Caraman's response is nicely concise. If it's any help, this link is to a discussion about the red button on another forum. The van in question was a 2017 Peugeot Boxer.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So it’s best not to activate it if you want the solar to-charge the battery ? I think I may have done this on my van hence flat battery . 
What on earth is the point of the red tag .

cutlerdiana wrote:So it’s best not to activate it if you want the solar to-charge the battery ? I think I may have done this on my van hence flat battery . 
What on earth is the point of the red tag .

The red tag has been around a while and is universal to all Boxers.  A-S recommend its use for winter storage if you have an EC500 and although they don't say so - if the van is being stored under cover.  The documentation that comes with our motorhomes and campervans is not very good.  For example, it doesn't say anywhere that the EC700 consumes on its own up to 7Ah per 24 hours which is more than the solar panel can generate during the winter months or that when the EC700 is shutdown all the solar charge goes to the VB.  I could fill this page with more examples like this but its too late at night to do so.

I had a very skimpy handover from Marquis when we took delivery in 2019.  One of the few things the lad doing the handover explained was the red tag but he didn't need to as it isn't normally required with the EC700.  But then he would have had no idea what happened to the solar charge when the EC700 was shutdown and therefore what would happen if the red button was used.  A few days later I asked a tech at Marquis if I should shutdown the EC700 when the van is out of use and he said leave it on all the time.  The solar will keep the batteries charged!  He had no idea which I found typical of much the technical advice I had from Marquis.

cutlerdiana wrote:So it’s best not to activate it if you want the solar to-charge the battery ? I think I may have done this on my van hence flat battery . 
...

If your VB was isolated using the red button it should only have been subject to self-discharge.  Self-discharge alone will take a long time to flatten the battery.  When your VB went flat, was the LB also flat?

Re-Best way to leave control panel. I have read all the replies with interest, but what everyone is missing is that if you leave the 700 panel on smart the battery select will eventually flatten both batteries, so switch the battery select to leisure disable the smart. Just to add our 2021 symbol auto on a fiat does not have the red button.

Bendog wrote:Re-Best way to leave control panel. I have read all the replies with interest, but what everyone is missing is that if you leave the 700 panel on smart the battery select will eventually flatten both batteries, so switch the battery select to leisure disable the smart. Just to add our 2021 symbol auto on a fiat does not have the red button.

I assume you mean solar smart charging.  It's not this that flattens the batteries, it's the EC700 drain when it exceeds the available solar charge.  This drain goes when the EC700 is shutdown but the VB will continue to be drained by the vehicle electrics if it does not receive any solar charge.  The EC700 drain is probably 10 times greater than the vehicle electrics drain.

Maybe Fiats don't have the red ignition button.

Correct. Fiats do not have the red isolator button.

Thank you all for your very helpful replies .
Caraman.    Yes indeed the leisure battery was flat , but the guys who are doing the hab check at the moment say that that the control panel is faulty which makes sense because when I would go and check the van and switch the 700 back on to check the levels it wouldn’t come on . So I would have to start the van in order for it to come on ! Then both battery levels were great till this week when they both weren’t !

cutlerdiana wrote:Thank you all for your very helpful replies .
Caraman.    Yes indeed the leisure battery was flat , but the guys who are doing the hab check at the moment say that that the control panel is faulty which makes sense because when I would go and check the van and switch the 700 back on to check the levels it wouldn’t come on . So I would have to start the van in order for it to come on ! Then both battery levels were great till this week when they both weren’t !

Understood.  If the EC700 is not shutdown and as a result it flattens the LB, it will then take its power from the VB and flatten it.

Hi Caraman ,  but shouldn’t the smart charging kick in and distribute the solar power evenly to both batteries ?

… when I was looking to buy a different brand new van I was told that the manufacturers were not allowed by law to to connect the solar panel to the vehicle battery.

Is that correct? I know it’s not the main issue here but it sounds like a salesman’s tale to me!

cutlerdiana wrote:Hi Caraman ,  but shouldn’t the smart charging kick in and distribute the solar power evenly to both batteries ?

If the EC700 is shutdown, which takes the load off the LB, the solar charge will only go to the VB which I have found is enough to compensate for the vehicle electrics load over the winter.  Smart solar charging of both batteries can only happen if the EC700 is not shutdown which increases the load on the LB.  This is fine in the summer when there is enough solar charge to keep the LB fully charged and give the VB a boost from time to time.  But in the depths of a UK winter when the days are short and the sun if its out is low, there isn't enough solar charge to compensate for both the vehicle electrics and EC700 loads.