Re: Best way to leave control panel

by Caraman Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:51 am

Sally wrote:
… when I was looking to buy a different brand new van I was told that the manufacturers were not allowed by law to to connect the solar panel to the vehicle battery.
Is that correct? I know it’s not the main issue here but it sounds like a salesman’s tale to me!

Yep - sounds like an ill-informed salesman to me and there are quite a few of them around.

by cutlerdiana Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:55 am

Thank you Caraman , got it !

by The Bargee Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:02 pm

Caraman wrote:
cutlerdiana wrote:Thank you all for your very helpful replies .
Caraman. Yes indeed the leisure battery was flat , but the guys who are doing the hab check at the moment say that that the control panel is faulty which makes sense because when I would go and check the van and switch the 700 back on to check the levels it wouldn’t come on . So I would have to start the van in order for it to come on ! Then both battery levels were great till this week when they both weren’t !
Understood. If the EC700 is not shutdown and as a result it flattens the LB, it will then take its power from the VB and flatten it.

That really should not be the case if a proper split charge system is fitted. Sargent have this document online

https://sargent.zohodesk.eu/portal/en/kb/articles/what-is-split-charging

which probably poses more questions than it answers but in principle I think what they are saying is:

1) When the engine is running and there is alternator output then the VB and LB are linked and charge together. It is certainly the case on my van that when the engine is running the charge voltages are identical, although I have not checked these at the battery yet. In that scenario the batteries are directly linked and will charge and discharge as they were a pair in parallel.

2) If the vehicle engine is not running (with no run signal from the alternator) then the VB and LB should be completely separated by said split charge relay, VSR or similar. The principal of any split charging system is that excess drain on one battery circuit should not pose a drain on the other battery circuit.

3) In terms of charging inputs from the AC/DC charger and from the solar panel there should be twin separate outputs from each of these units to the LB and VB, diode protected (or whatever happens electronically now) so that there can be no cross feeds between the systems. The Smart bit should be the selection of the output that the charger favours at any one time based on the voltage of the two separate batteries.

4) The bit I really don't understand is that Sargent then seem to say (section 3.5 of the EC700 manual)) that their system prompts any habitation loads that might be being drawn from the VB to switch from the VB to the LB when the VB drops to below 10.9 volts. That suggests that there is NO proper full split charge provision and that the batteries can cross feed (at least down the preset voltage), but perhaps that is dependent upon the battery selected? However we are told that the VB will be isolated at below 10.9 volts and that in turn when the LB drops below 9 volts it too will be isolated. I'm not getting my head around all that! Personally I think these voltages are too low but the principle remains (as explained by Sargent) that when for example the VB drops below 10.9 it is automatically isolated from the habitation demands. That might imply that the vehicle does not have a full split charge system, as I understand them but even so it should not be possible for the VB to drain completely into the LB, for example, and supposing it all works.

5) I too fail to see what good the "red tag" does on Peugeot models. It would be interesting to know just what constant drain there is on the vehicle systems. As said there will be a fairly negligible amount of normal self-discharge but what else is there to flatten the battery? Sounds like the solar needs disconnecting or put the vehicle in a shed, then measure the draw from the battery.

It would seem to me (until corrected) that the concensus is that for a vehicle equipped with EC700 (which has a heavy constant consumption) that is being stored outside it should be left with the PSU switched off and the solar set to charge the VB only. Where the solar can't contribute (e.g. indoors) then the PSU should be turned off and the red tag used to disconnect the VB, although I think I would still prefer a proper master switch on the positive terminal or somewhere convenient close by. Obviously a vehicle under cover will need to be charged occasionally but surely any mechanical item needs to be used occasionally or they gather glitches and, so some schools of thought say, flat patches on the tyres, so go for a drive every month!

by Peter Brown Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:30 pm

The Bargee wrote:
4) The bit I really don't understand is that Sargent then seem to say (section 3.5 of the EC700 manual)) that their system prompts any habitation loads that might be being drawn from the VB to switch from the VB to the LB when the VB drops to below 10.9 volts. That suggests that there is NO proper full split charge provision and that the batteries can cross feed (at least down the preset voltage), but perhaps that is dependent upon the battery selected? However we are told that the VB will be isolated at below 10.9 volts and that in turn when the LB drops below 9 volts it too will be isolated. I'm not getting my head around all that! Personally I think these voltages are too low but the principle remains (as explained by Sargent) that when for example the VB drops below 10.9 it is automatically isolated from the habitation demands. That might imply that the vehicle does not have a full split charge system, as I understand them but even so it should not be possible for the VB to drain completely into the LB, for example, and supposing it all works.

5) I too fail to see what good the "red tag" does on Peugeot models. It would be interesting to know just what constant drain there is on the vehicle systems. As said there will be a fairly negligible amount of normal self-discharge but what else is there to flatten the battery? Sounds like the solar needs disconnecting or put the vehicle in a shed, then measure the draw from the battery.

4) Sargent always quote battery voltages 'on load' as that is what is displayed on their control panel so for any given circumstance the voltage is much less that the open circuit voltage would be. The load (habitation circuitry) can be energised by either battery but not both together (as the habitation circuits are disconnected when the split charge relay is energised). Which battery is being used is selected manually on the control panel or because the system has detected that one battery voltage is too low and switches to the other, however the starter battery is not allowed to be used if the on load voltage is 10.9v or less.

5) I did research the operation of this facility a couple of years ago and its use replaces the requirement to disconnect the starter battery at the terminals that has been a storage requirement in the Peugeot (and Mercedes) manuals for many years.

by Caraman Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:15 pm

The Bargee wrote:
Caraman wrote:
cutlerdiana wrote:Thank you all for your very helpful replies .
Caraman. Yes indeed the leisure battery was flat , but the guys who are doing the hab check at the moment say that that the control panel is faulty which makes sense because when I would go and check the van and switch the 700 back on to check the levels it wouldn’t come on . So I would have to start the van in order for it to come on ! Then both battery levels were great till this week when they both weren’t !
Understood. If the EC700 is not shutdown and as a result it flattens the LB, it will then take its power from the VB and flatten it.
That really should not be the case if a proper split charge system is fitted. Sargent have this document online

https://sargent.zohodesk.eu/portal/en/kb/articles/what-is-split-charging

which probably poses more questions than it answers but in principle I think what they are saying is:

.....

2) If the vehicle engine is not running (with no run signal from the alternator) then the VB and LB should be completely separated by said split charge relay, VSR or similar. The principal of any split charging system is that excess drain on one battery circuit should not pose a drain on the other battery circuit.

.....

So far I haven't flattened my LB so I can't prove exactly what happens but a couple of years ago I experimented by placing an ammeter across the VB 20A EM40 fuse with the fuse removed, removing the the 20A in-line LB fuse and turning on the EC700. The EC700 worked and was drawing a similar current from the VB as it would have done from the LB. There is also evidence of folk on this forum who have placed their motorhome in winter storage with the EC700 still on and ended up with two flat batteries suggesting the EC700 automatically flips to the VB if the LB, which is an auxiliary battery to the VB, goes flat. In general discussion Sargent has agreed with me that this is what happens. The vehicle electrics on their own would take quite a while to flatten the VB.

by Caraman Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:30 pm

The Bargee wrote:
Caraman wrote:
cutlerdiana wrote:Thank you all for your very helpful replies .
Caraman. Yes indeed the leisure battery was flat , but the guys who are doing the hab check at the moment say that that the control panel is faulty which makes sense because when I would go and check the van and switch the 700 back on to check the levels it wouldn’t come on . So I would have to start the van in order for it to come on ! Then both battery levels were great till this week when they both weren’t !
Understood. If the EC700 is not shutdown and as a result it flattens the LB, it will then take its power from the VB and flatten it.
That really should not be the case if a proper split charge system is fitted. Sargent have this document online

https://sargent.zohodesk.eu/portal/en/kb/articles/what-is-split-charging

which probably poses more questions than it answers but in principle I think what they are saying is:

....
5) ... It would be interesting to know just what constant drain there is on the vehicle systems. As said there will be a fairly negligible amount of normal self-discharge but what else is there to flatten the battery? Sounds like the solar needs disconnecting or put the vehicle in a shed, then measure the draw from the battery.
....

I was curious to find out what the vehicle electrics load is when the vehicle is parked up. Sargent and A-S didn't know so I asked Peugeot UK who referred me to a Peugeot dealer who also didn't know. They offered to measure it for me at great expense which I declined. I did consider measuring it myself but was spooked by all the ironmongery on top of the VB. If I did measure it I would then have to add my armed vehicle alarm load which I obtained from the alarm fitter. It doesn't end there as when my van is out of use on the drive I frequently use the central locking to access it which is a further drain on the VB. Others might not have deactivated their cab lights which will come on when either cab door is opened and some may even turn on their cab radio, all of which adds to the vehicle electrics load on the VB when the vehicle is out of use.

by The Bargee Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:23 pm

I think I will just leave mine plugged in!

by The Bargee Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:01 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
The Bargee wrote:
4) The bit I really don't understand is that Sargent then seem to say (section 3.5 of the EC700 manual)) that their system prompts any habitation loads that might be being drawn from the VB to switch from the VB to the LB when the VB drops to below 10.9 volts. That suggests that there is NO proper full split charge provision and that the batteries can cross feed (at least down the preset voltage), but perhaps that is dependent upon the battery selected? However we are told that the VB will be isolated at below 10.9 volts and that in turn when the LB drops below 9 volts it too will be isolated. I'm not getting my head around all that! Personally I think these voltages are too low but the principle remains (as explained by Sargent) that when for example the VB drops below 10.9 it is automatically isolated from the habitation demands. That might imply that the vehicle does not have a full split charge system, as I understand them but even so it should not be possible for the VB to drain completely into the LB, for example, and supposing it all works.

5) I too fail to see what good the "red tag" does on Peugeot models. It would be interesting to know just what constant drain there is on the vehicle systems. As said there will be a fairly negligible amount of normal self-discharge but what else is there to flatten the battery? Sounds like the solar needs disconnecting or put the vehicle in a shed, then measure the draw from the battery.

4) Sargent always quote battery voltages 'on load' as that is what is displayed on their control panel so for any given circumstance the voltage is much less that the open circuit voltage would be. The load (habitation circuitry) can be energised by either battery but not both together (as the habitation circuits are disconnected when the split charge relay is energised). Which battery is being used is selected manually on the control panel or because the system has detected that one battery voltage is too low and switches to the other, however the starter battery is not allowed to be used if the on load voltage is 10.9v or less.

5) I did research the operation of this facility a couple of years ago and its use replaces the requirement to disconnect the starter battery at the terminals that has been a storage requirement in the Peugeot (and Mercedes) manuals for many years.

by The Bargee Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:11 pm

Sorry, pressed wrong button. Two very useful explanations thank you Peter.

I follow what you say in (4) and this confirms my suspicion that there is no full split and there is a degree of human intervention needed, but OK, should work.

More importantly I think you have helped clarify in my mind what may be the fundamental cause of some of the problems I am seeing. As said before I am getting low battery alerts from both batteries even though the resting voltages at the terminals exceed 12.5 volts, coupled with erratic behaviour which could be because the EC700 is misreading the voltages somehow. the EC700 seems to think the batteries are much flatter than they are.