Difficult water pump priming on 2014 Symbol

I use a whale submersible pump to transfer water from an Aquaroll to the onboard tank but often find it a problem to get water from the tank to the taps/toilet etc.  I leave the hot tap open as instructed and can hear the pump whirring away but often no water or spluttering.  I don’t think it’s an airlock but rather battery voltage (13.6) as I always hook-up first.  Should I adjust the pump sensor or just do the transfer on battery power?  Anyone got any observations on the issue?  Thanks

Only one thing to do, fit a Shurflo, no regrets.

Loads of posts on here, air in system, drive miles round bumpy roads. etc etc
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Richard

Left our's in the caravan when we sold it, never looked back, or indeed needed one now we have the van. Maybe  handy on the removal size vans, but not on a PVC.  


Super glued my hat on
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Richard

Need I add - Richard and Ian have said it all! 

there must be some fundamental reason why 'no water from tap' threads are so prevalent here...
can it just be the use of submersible pumps or is there something else common with the pipe layouts.
i must admit, i dont drain down very often as we use the van all year and its never idle on the drive for very long....also, we dont get much in the way of prolonged cold weather down here so draining from that perspective isnt usually necessary either.
however, on the occasions that i have needed to refill fully from empty, i have never had an airlock of any kind.
perhaps my 'method' of filling is a bit different, perhaps our inline pump is more powerful and 'blasts' away system air quickly and cleanly? driving the van around the countryside to shift an airlock cannot be a requirement of putting water in a modern motorhome, can it?
FWIW, heres how i fill...
stuff the hose in the water inlet (now that might be a problem for some already.....) and wait a few mins until theres about 20 ltrs or more in the fresh tank...
then turn on the water pump...this will start to move water from the fresh tank to the hot water boiler...with the taps closed, the boiler will fill and the pump will soon stop as the tank is full.
there will be air at the top of the tank which needs to be purged, so i open the hot tap in the kitchen slowly, gently releasing the air from the hot side....yes, there will be a bit of spluttering but this soon disappears and a steady stream arrives.
turn tap to cold and this will run steady al ost immediately.
check level of cold tank fill, be prepared to tirn off as guage rises towards full.
brim tank via water inlet till overflows....tank now absolutely full.
move to bathroom and gently open hot tap...again not much air to release as most went via kitchen tap....move tap to cold, water should run freely....
15 mins tops to fill 120 ltrs, plus hot tank and bleed. 
are others doing things differently and getting airlocks?
are others doing the same but still getting airlocks?

In defence of the submersible, mine has been pretty much faultless in operation during the 2 years I’ve owned my van - that’s cursed it!!
Maybe I just got lucky with the installation during build?

I know all about the longevity problems of the submersible pumps having used/changed a couple of them in previous vehicles over the years and if mine fails a Shurflo will be fitted.
For now though I’m happy, they are not perfect but there must be reasons why so many have issues as BB mentions above.

yes, i wasnt criticising the submersible type per se, merely looking for 'commonality' in those that record issues.
as i said, there may be some other fundamental pipe routing issue that causes priming problems across layouts?
which other brands use submersibles? do these have priming problems?
for those AS owners that switched to Shurflo (or Flojet) did the priming problems disappear (i realise many changed to avoid the difficulty in changing a submersible should it fail....)

Yes no problems since fitting the shurflo, no priming, shove the hose in the hole and bingo you have water from the taps instantly. No waiting can be up and running depending on supply pressure very quickly.

That's the way if works, full stop. In my case anyway

So pleased Gromit posted about it a long time ago, thanks Dave
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Richard

The latest theory I heard suggests that the angle of the pump is critical. If it's too near the horizontal it can get an air bubble around the impeller, which just spins away without being able to pump any water.

I believe the most recent tanks now come with the pumps pre-installed, so the problems should be cured on post (about) 2017 vans?? This came from Mark before he left A/S.

Having fitted a Shurflo, everyone (without exception I think) reports complete success. Just fill up with water, switch on the pump, and it just gets on with the job, without any of the previous histrionics.
The definitive "Fit and forget" modification. 

bolero boy wrote:there must be some fundamental reason why 'no water from tap' threads are so prevalent here...
can it just be the use of submersible pumps or is there something else common with the pipe layouts.

I often wondered the same thoughts.    My present (non Autosleeper) has a submersible and I've never experienced these problems in seven years.   I never had problems (apart from the initial pause) when I had the Rienza (non submersible).

it does beg the question as to why AS didnt address this issue long ago, following so many reported issues...
i guess they are so 'in partnership' with Whale (pumps, water sockets, now heating and hot water boilers) moving to Shurflo/Flojet pumps might not have made for good 'team' meetings.
hey ho, whats a few (hundred) unhappy customers....

rgermain wrote:Yes no problems since fitting the shurflo, no priming, shove the hose in the hole and bingo you have water from the taps instantly. No waiting can be up and running depending on supply pressure very quickly.

That's the way if works, full stop. In my case anyway

So pleased Gromit posted about it a long time ago, thanks Dave
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Richard

Thank you too Richard. You have it in a nutshell there.

Do you remember how often I was flamed for daring to criticise the Whale system? 

I can still not understand why a system designed for, and perfectly satisfactory for caravans was installed in motorhomes, whose method of water management is very different. Specially when the Shurflo had been working perfectly for them for many years up to then!! 

I can also not understand why some folk still think it's a great system. They must be ex-tuggers, who can't settle down and relax without hours of faffing and fiddling with their equipment! 

Hard hat securely fastened! 

I started this post so will give an update.  Many thanks for your replies. Well, after trying all sorts of things, we spent the last 2 nights of our sojourn with a tank-full of water but no supply to taps or toilet!  So, resorted to kettle and water carrier.  Drained half the tank for the drive home yesterday.  Tried the system just now on battery power alone (12.6v).  Hey presto - it all works perfectly!  Guess it was an air-lock but could it have been the pump pressure switch voltage?  The manual actually says (Pg 7-3)  “pressure switch adjustment may be required usually because the power supply voltage has varied from the previous setting”, “battery drainage through use or higher voltage when on charge”.  “ Be sure to set the switch at low battery condition”.
There appear to be 2 morals to this issue:- 1) part fill tank before leaving home and leave a tap open so jiggling expels air.  2) get water system working from battery voltage before hooking-up.  DaveS

A fellow camper was moaning he could not get water from any of the taps, suggested turn the pump on and suck on the shower hose, next day tells me it worked.

@Casion...that’s the one thing I didn’t think of trying!  Will give it a go if I have probs again.  Cheers - DaveS

Daves wrote:@Casion...that’s the one thing I didn’t think of trying!  Will give it a go if I have probs again.  Cheers - DaveS

Luckily I’ve never had to resort to sucking on the taps but it’s been mentioned many times on here.
I think one member even designed a contraption to make the job easier!

Dbvwt wrote:

Daves wrote:@Casion...that’s the one thing I didn’t think of trying!  Will give it a go if I have probs again.  Cheers - DaveS

Luckily I’ve never had to resort to sucking on the taps but it’s been mentioned many times on here.
I think one member even designed a contraption to make the job easier!

That might have been me before I saw the light and went Shurflo. I used a Hozelock mixer tap connector, short length .of hose and started sucking .  Must admit it worked, to a fashion, spent the next hour peeing.

I see BB still likes to have a go at A/S  Is his van peeeeeeerfect.

Hard hat still on.
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Richard

Mike187 wrote:On a more serious note I think that there’s some merit in the air bubble in the impeller theory, although in the 5 years ownership of this van I’ve never had an airlock problem with the water tank submersible pump . . .

Mike

Hi Mike

I should have mentioned that Mark told me the submersible pump problems seem either to occur or they don't. Most owners never have much of a problem, if any, whereas some have to fiddle for ages every time they fill up, coaxing and bullying them into submission.

"Luck of the draw" was how he put it. If your pump happens to sit at the right angle, all will be well. If it doesn't, it's likely to be a constant pain in the rear!

Ours was a right pain every time, but I was always more concerned about it packing up completely on the second day of a holiday to France, which would involve crawling under the van and dropping the tank to fix or replace it.

In the unlikely event of a Shurflo failing, ten minutes with a small screwdriver will replace it with a new one, which can be found quite easily anywhere on the near Continent.

Well said Gromit, it does seem that problems with the whale submersible are either a right pain in the * Inappropriate Word * or don’t give any problems at all. Luckily mine has been absolutely fine.

IMO it is how they were fitted at the factory and unfortunately A/S don’t seem to care about how that fitting was achieved and whether it may cause issues for people who have spent a substantial amount of money on their vehicles. 

At the end of the day we are talking about a simple pump 

My van has the whale submersible pump and in the 3 years I have had this van, the water system has refused to prime (only) twice.
On both occasions I took a short drive over a speed bump and this fixed it. I have noted most campsites have speed bumps though I had not, until recently, realised they were for AS motorhomes.  
This leads me to surmise there is an issue related to how the pump is sited inside the tank.
I now check the pump is working before making the pitch permanent but it is a rare occurrence.
The system is OK for now but when it breaks I will not replace like for like, I'll get a Shurflo.

@Dbvwt.  That’s what I’ve always thought.  Us campers love our vans and they’re part of our life.   However, there’s no love lost on manufacturers or dealers.  It’s a race to the bottom of value for them!

AutoSleepy_Don wrote:My van has the whale submersible pump and in the 3 years I have had this van, the water system has refused to prime (only) twice.
On both occasions I took a short drive over a speed bump and this fixed it. I have noted most campsites have speed bumps though I had not, until recently, realised they were for AS motorhomes.  
This leads me to surmise there is an issue related to how the pump is sited inside the tank.
I now check the pump is working before making the pitch permanent but it is a rare occurrence.
The system is OK for now but when it breaks I will not replace like for like, I'll get a Shurflo.

You surmise correctly Don. See my previous post(s). They should be OK now as the tanks are sourced with the pumps pre-installed.
Also as said before, my main concern about your current (and my former) pump is that Mr Sod (he of the infamous Law ) may ensure that when it does pack up, you/we are just starting a long holiday across the Channel.

That was mostly what prompted me to get a Shurflo fitted.

Dave