Rust & Sill Drains
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Rust & Sill Drains
by pilchard Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:54 pm
Is there anyone out there that has any advice to give, or has any real degree of experience, regarding rust to the sills on a Peugeot Boxer Symbol?
Having spent most of it’s life in dry storage my low mileage 2001 Symbol Peugeot Boxer is in excellent condition, but last year we noticed small patches of rusty water stains bleeding up onto the offside sill from the bottom seam where it joins the inner sill.
I know that the van’s previous owner had some slight damage (a bit of a scrape I think) repaired to that O/S sill, and to a few inches of panel above it, so I’ve been assuming that either the welded/sealed seam between inner and outer sill might have opened slightly, and maybe the Autosleepers factory applied underseal inside the sill might have become compromised, and the bare steel is in contact with water and road salts an now in very early stages of rusting from within.
I’ve had nothing but very positive experiences with Kurust and found that once painted on, and the rust converted into an inert blue-black compound, the rust.. at point of application… is stopped in it’s tracks. So I was going to set about injecting almost industrial quantities of the stuff up through the sill drain-holes untill it floods out. But oddly… I can’t find any drain holes in the sill.
So my question is… does a 2001 Peugeot Boxer not have drain-holes in it’s sills, or maybe the repairer has somehow flattened/blocked them.
If I have to, I’ll drill holes in the inner sill and introduce the Kurust that way. But absence of drain holes is guaranteed to trap water and encourage rust inside the sill... as evidenced by the brown rusty water bleeding out from the seam between inner and outer.
Having spent most of it’s life in dry storage my low mileage 2001 Symbol Peugeot Boxer is in excellent condition, but last year we noticed small patches of rusty water stains bleeding up onto the offside sill from the bottom seam where it joins the inner sill.
I know that the van’s previous owner had some slight damage (a bit of a scrape I think) repaired to that O/S sill, and to a few inches of panel above it, so I’ve been assuming that either the welded/sealed seam between inner and outer sill might have opened slightly, and maybe the Autosleepers factory applied underseal inside the sill might have become compromised, and the bare steel is in contact with water and road salts an now in very early stages of rusting from within.
I’ve had nothing but very positive experiences with Kurust and found that once painted on, and the rust converted into an inert blue-black compound, the rust.. at point of application… is stopped in it’s tracks. So I was going to set about injecting almost industrial quantities of the stuff up through the sill drain-holes untill it floods out. But oddly… I can’t find any drain holes in the sill.
So my question is… does a 2001 Peugeot Boxer not have drain-holes in it’s sills, or maybe the repairer has somehow flattened/blocked them.
If I have to, I’ll drill holes in the inner sill and introduce the Kurust that way. But absence of drain holes is guaranteed to trap water and encourage rust inside the sill... as evidenced by the brown rusty water bleeding out from the seam between inner and outer.
pilchard- Member
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Posts : 219
Joined : 2017-08-01
Member Age : 73
Location : cockermouth
Auto-Sleeper Model : Inca
Vehicle Year : 2006
Re: Rust & Sill Drains
by kaspian Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:04 pm
I have no personal experience of that van model but have repaired loads of sills in my time. If one side had previous damage check the other side for drain holes and compare. Most if not all have some sort of drain hole or plugs or bungs possibly painted over to access that area.
First I would carefully probe the area to check that there is no structural, serious rust that is hidden under filler and layers of painted underseal. The area you speak of usually is the meeting point of floor , outer and inner sills and can look good on the outside but be so weak that a finger can be pushed through in extreme cases! If area proves sound I would check inner sill for access and if still no access drill some evenly spaced holes carefully which can be treated and plugged using bungs bought on the web. Inspect and try to ensure the cavity is as dry as possible by leaving holes open a few windy days before injecting. Do not try injecting copious amounts of Kurust blindly into a sill! It is not designed for that really. Instead use your favourite waxoyl or dinitrol cavity wax and inhibitor to inject fully the whole area inside the sills at pressure if possible and heating and thinning the mixture helps it flow into every crevice and box section, especially in cold weather. This is exactly what these fluids are meant for.
A/s will have applied no wax and Peugeot minimal if any. Van's are built to do 2-3 hundred K miles in a short time and be scrapped. Your van at 19+ years in commercial vehicle terms needs help now to make it last longer. If you need further help in how to apply wax ie what to use to inject etc etc don't hesitate to PM.
First I would carefully probe the area to check that there is no structural, serious rust that is hidden under filler and layers of painted underseal. The area you speak of usually is the meeting point of floor , outer and inner sills and can look good on the outside but be so weak that a finger can be pushed through in extreme cases! If area proves sound I would check inner sill for access and if still no access drill some evenly spaced holes carefully which can be treated and plugged using bungs bought on the web. Inspect and try to ensure the cavity is as dry as possible by leaving holes open a few windy days before injecting. Do not try injecting copious amounts of Kurust blindly into a sill! It is not designed for that really. Instead use your favourite waxoyl or dinitrol cavity wax and inhibitor to inject fully the whole area inside the sills at pressure if possible and heating and thinning the mixture helps it flow into every crevice and box section, especially in cold weather. This is exactly what these fluids are meant for.
A/s will have applied no wax and Peugeot minimal if any. Van's are built to do 2-3 hundred K miles in a short time and be scrapped. Your van at 19+ years in commercial vehicle terms needs help now to make it last longer. If you need further help in how to apply wax ie what to use to inject etc etc don't hesitate to PM.
kaspian- Member
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Posts : 1372
Joined : 2015-09-27
Member Age : 64
Location : ayrshire - Burns country
Auto-Sleeper Model : WARWICK XL
Vehicle Year : 2017
Re: Rust & Sill Drains
by pilchard Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:51 am
Thanks for your input kaspian.
Just a qick one.... busy day today.... I'll try and get some photos and get back on this topic later today. You sound like you have just the kind of experience I need.
Just a qick one.... busy day today.... I'll try and get some photos and get back on this topic later today. You sound like you have just the kind of experience I need.
pilchard- Member
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Posts : 219
Joined : 2017-08-01
Member Age : 73
Location : cockermouth
Auto-Sleeper Model : Inca
Vehicle Year : 2006
Re: Rust & Sill Drains
by pilchard Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:03 pm
Hi kaspian sorry about the delayed reply to your very welcome response, but I’ve had a catalogue of computer related probs. Couldn’t upload the photos… but they were very poor anyway… and then, not once but twice, my nearly completed lengthy reply to you just deleted itself when I was called away from my laptop to deal with other stuff. The tab I had open just disappeared. First time I blamed my poor wife who had used my laptop in my absence, but the second time it did it on it’s own. I realise it must be a special forum feature to keep people like me on our toes. I had a meltdown but didn’t resort to alcohol.
Anyway… rust….
I’ve seen more of this stuff, on the many cars I’ve owned through my long life, than you can shake a stick at. Although I gave up doing my own (other than simple) mechanical repairs some years back, I’ll proudly admit that I’ve grovelled about under every car I’ve ever owned and know from bitter experience what terminal rust looks like… and how it cleverly hides from view. My van is sound. Sills, outriggers, subframes etc… all ring with a satisfying “boing” when tapped with bars and hammers. The rust stains on this sill are the early signs of rust, bleeding out from the bottom flange seam between O/S inner and outer sill, and it is pretty much absent on the N/S sill… and elsewhere.
Re Waxoyl… there is a coat of clear Waxoyl all over the underside, but I always assumed it will have been done by Autosleepers. Maybe they don’t do it as standard, but as an extra…. the van is the pretty rare 2.8 HDI version after all. It could have been done later though, but whoever did it… no-one has renewed it, amended, over-coated, over-sprayed it… it’s all original, in very good order, with no patching or other suspicious activity.
I did check the N/S sill, which has a differently shaped inner sill because of the sliding door, and found a few discrete but obvious drains… pressed into the bottom flange of the inner sill. There is no evidence of anything similar on the O/S sill, and I don’t think Peugeot designed that sill to not drain while the N/S one does. So I can only deduce that the drain holes were sacrificed during the repair work… clamping, hammering, welding etc.
A thin line of brown is clearly visible when I examine the very bottom edge of the joint flange between inner & outer sill, so I am drawn to conclude that the accidental scrape or the repair work “popped” the spot-welded and factory sealed flange and left raw steel (maybe only on the two flange faces) exposed to the elements.
I agree with your recommendation of drilling some small access ports; but I’m also thinking of drilling some alternative drains in the inner sill rather than trying to find the mangled remains of the originals, and trying to pry them open. Good sense would suggest I do this just above the level of the flange/joint between inner and outer; and I’ll need to poke a screwdriver up through the hole to remove any Waxoyl or other that might prevent water draining out.
How do you feel about that?
Could you expand on why you don’t recommend introducing Kurust into the sill?
Rightly or wrongly, my train of logic suggests that if I spray copious amounts of Kurust into the sill cavity it’ll find it’s way into every nook and cranny, sucked into microscopic cracks that even hot Waxoyl possibly wouldn’t penetrate, and dribble out through any seam that has become compromised. In the process it will convert (and make inert) any rust it comes into contact with, and any trapped surplus will evaporate over a few dry breeze days. I could then apply Waxoyl as you have recommended.
That’s enough for now, but… what experience do you have of some stuff called Raptor? Here’s a link….
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Anyway… rust….
I’ve seen more of this stuff, on the many cars I’ve owned through my long life, than you can shake a stick at. Although I gave up doing my own (other than simple) mechanical repairs some years back, I’ll proudly admit that I’ve grovelled about under every car I’ve ever owned and know from bitter experience what terminal rust looks like… and how it cleverly hides from view. My van is sound. Sills, outriggers, subframes etc… all ring with a satisfying “boing” when tapped with bars and hammers. The rust stains on this sill are the early signs of rust, bleeding out from the bottom flange seam between O/S inner and outer sill, and it is pretty much absent on the N/S sill… and elsewhere.
Re Waxoyl… there is a coat of clear Waxoyl all over the underside, but I always assumed it will have been done by Autosleepers. Maybe they don’t do it as standard, but as an extra…. the van is the pretty rare 2.8 HDI version after all. It could have been done later though, but whoever did it… no-one has renewed it, amended, over-coated, over-sprayed it… it’s all original, in very good order, with no patching or other suspicious activity.
I did check the N/S sill, which has a differently shaped inner sill because of the sliding door, and found a few discrete but obvious drains… pressed into the bottom flange of the inner sill. There is no evidence of anything similar on the O/S sill, and I don’t think Peugeot designed that sill to not drain while the N/S one does. So I can only deduce that the drain holes were sacrificed during the repair work… clamping, hammering, welding etc.
A thin line of brown is clearly visible when I examine the very bottom edge of the joint flange between inner & outer sill, so I am drawn to conclude that the accidental scrape or the repair work “popped” the spot-welded and factory sealed flange and left raw steel (maybe only on the two flange faces) exposed to the elements.
I agree with your recommendation of drilling some small access ports; but I’m also thinking of drilling some alternative drains in the inner sill rather than trying to find the mangled remains of the originals, and trying to pry them open. Good sense would suggest I do this just above the level of the flange/joint between inner and outer; and I’ll need to poke a screwdriver up through the hole to remove any Waxoyl or other that might prevent water draining out.
How do you feel about that?
Could you expand on why you don’t recommend introducing Kurust into the sill?
Rightly or wrongly, my train of logic suggests that if I spray copious amounts of Kurust into the sill cavity it’ll find it’s way into every nook and cranny, sucked into microscopic cracks that even hot Waxoyl possibly wouldn’t penetrate, and dribble out through any seam that has become compromised. In the process it will convert (and make inert) any rust it comes into contact with, and any trapped surplus will evaporate over a few dry breeze days. I could then apply Waxoyl as you have recommended.
That’s enough for now, but… what experience do you have of some stuff called Raptor? Here’s a link….
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
pilchard- Member
-
Posts : 219
Joined : 2017-08-01
Member Age : 73
Location : cockermouth
Auto-Sleeper Model : Inca
Vehicle Year : 2006
kaspian- Member
-
Posts : 1372
Joined : 2015-09-27
Member Age : 64
Location : ayrshire - Burns country
Auto-Sleeper Model : WARWICK XL
Vehicle Year : 2017
Re: Rust & Sill Drains
by pilchard Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:39 pm
???? There's nothing new in my Inbox kaspian.kaspian wrote:PM sent!
pilchard- Member
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Posts : 219
Joined : 2017-08-01
Member Age : 73
Location : cockermouth
Auto-Sleeper Model : Inca
Vehicle Year : 2006
Re: Rust & Sill Drains
by Guest Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:04 pm
Hi Just a note I have similar issues and am wanting to get mine looked at soon. But have noted that one side has holes with bungs in - from memory the pass side and the Drivers side doesn’t. Has always seemed off to me. But agree that there are no obvious drain holes.
Mines a 2001 body reg 2003
Mines a 2001 body reg 2003
Guest- Guest
Re: Rust & Sill Drains
by Guest Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:04 pm
Hi Just a note I have similar issues and am wanting to get mine looked at soon. But have noted that one side has holes with bungs in - from memory the pass side and the Drivers side doesn’t. Has always seemed off to me. But agree that there are no obvious drain holes.
Mines a 2001 body reg 2003
Mines a 2001 body reg 2003
Guest- Guest
Re: Rust & Sill Drains
by pilchard Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:36 pm
RobinWid wrote:Hi Just a note I have similar issues and am wanting to get mine looked at soon. But have noted that one side has holes with bungs in - from memory the pass side and the Drivers side doesn’t. Has always seemed off to me. But agree that there are no obvious drain holes.
Mines a 2001 body reg 2003
Hi RobinWid,
I can't remember seeing any holes with bungs on the back of my N/S (passenger side) sill... will have to have another look. But you should be able to find 3 (I think I saw 3) small 30 - 40mm long by approx 5mm wide slots... sill drains... in the bottom flange that forms the joint between inner and outer sill. Have a close look and let me know when you find them.
As to the O/S (drivers side)... once you've identified what to expect these drains to look like from looking at the other side... look for the same features. Although I can rationalize that mine are absent because someone has done some repair work and could have squashed them flat... if your van don't have drains at the bottom edge of the O/S sill.... I'd be gobsmacked.
Kaspian and I have been communicating by Private Message at great length on this subject... much of which you (and maybe others) might find useful. I'm happy to share those messages if kaspian is. Kaspian?
pilchard- Member
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Posts : 219
Joined : 2017-08-01
Member Age : 73
Location : cockermouth
Auto-Sleeper Model : Inca
Vehicle Year : 2006
Re: Rust & Sill Drains
by pilchard Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:22 pm
Just in case anyone is still interested in the outcome of this "Rusty Sill" project.....
I had it patch-welded and, apart from the fact that you can see a slight deformation in the line of the bottom seam, I'm fairly pleased with the outcome and finish. The sill-drains that were obliterated by the rubbish repair years before my ownership were not able to be re-created in the original manner, so I will have to drill the inner sill in a few appropriate places later in the year and create my own sill-drains.
As to rust proofing..... I did go for Lanoguard in the end. Prior to the Lanoguard I'd injected both sills and any even slightly suspect outrigger, jacking points etc with copious quantities of Kurust. The Lanoguard brand is fairly new to the market, but there is a similar lanolin formulation called Corrolan that has long historic provenance in marine, armed forces, off-shore rigs, and NATO, and I would have gone for that but Lanoguard supplies a useful little inexpensive kit of DIY sprays and injectors, whereas Corrolan only supplied expensive compressed-air kit... and I don't even have a compressor.
I have a good cold-water pressure-washer, so washed all muck out of crevices etc a few days before.
The Lanoguard was very easy to use and, once I'd got each end of the van in turn up on ramps, I don't think I spent more than an hour grovelling around underneath. It covers very economically and I still have about 10% left of the 2 litres supplied. The stuff is quite thin, so it tracks and sucks deep into seams and patches of rust very nicely.
They reckon to do it once or twice a year. I think that is because although it is waterproof and durable, it will be subject to a degree of wash-off on extended high-speed journeys, with the scouring action of water and grit. But, of course, the sill inners will not suffer this kind of wear.
The next time I do it though, I'll do my own thing. I've discovered the recipe for these lanolin rust proofers. One Kg of anhydrous lanolin can be bought for approx £20 and mixed with 4 litres of white spirit. Using a cheap pump-up garden spray with a wand will probably even obviate the need to grovel around underneath, bearing in mind that all the rust-prone areas are within easy reach... sills outriggers wheel arches etc..
I've just bought a 90 degree extension wand for the pressure washer from Lidl, so hopefully no more grovelling and getting soaked from the pre-treatment power-wash in future.
I even thought of using the lanolin on our car until I remembered, it's an Audi A2 and has an aluminium body and cast space-frame. Why all motor vehicles are not built the same, I just don't know.
I had it patch-welded and, apart from the fact that you can see a slight deformation in the line of the bottom seam, I'm fairly pleased with the outcome and finish. The sill-drains that were obliterated by the rubbish repair years before my ownership were not able to be re-created in the original manner, so I will have to drill the inner sill in a few appropriate places later in the year and create my own sill-drains.
As to rust proofing..... I did go for Lanoguard in the end. Prior to the Lanoguard I'd injected both sills and any even slightly suspect outrigger, jacking points etc with copious quantities of Kurust. The Lanoguard brand is fairly new to the market, but there is a similar lanolin formulation called Corrolan that has long historic provenance in marine, armed forces, off-shore rigs, and NATO, and I would have gone for that but Lanoguard supplies a useful little inexpensive kit of DIY sprays and injectors, whereas Corrolan only supplied expensive compressed-air kit... and I don't even have a compressor.
I have a good cold-water pressure-washer, so washed all muck out of crevices etc a few days before.
The Lanoguard was very easy to use and, once I'd got each end of the van in turn up on ramps, I don't think I spent more than an hour grovelling around underneath. It covers very economically and I still have about 10% left of the 2 litres supplied. The stuff is quite thin, so it tracks and sucks deep into seams and patches of rust very nicely.
They reckon to do it once or twice a year. I think that is because although it is waterproof and durable, it will be subject to a degree of wash-off on extended high-speed journeys, with the scouring action of water and grit. But, of course, the sill inners will not suffer this kind of wear.
The next time I do it though, I'll do my own thing. I've discovered the recipe for these lanolin rust proofers. One Kg of anhydrous lanolin can be bought for approx £20 and mixed with 4 litres of white spirit. Using a cheap pump-up garden spray with a wand will probably even obviate the need to grovel around underneath, bearing in mind that all the rust-prone areas are within easy reach... sills outriggers wheel arches etc..
I've just bought a 90 degree extension wand for the pressure washer from Lidl, so hopefully no more grovelling and getting soaked from the pre-treatment power-wash in future.
I even thought of using the lanolin on our car until I remembered, it's an Audi A2 and has an aluminium body and cast space-frame. Why all motor vehicles are not built the same, I just don't know.
pilchard- Member
-
Posts : 219
Joined : 2017-08-01
Member Age : 73
Location : cockermouth
Auto-Sleeper Model : Inca
Vehicle Year : 2006
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