Warwick xl lack of insulation

While working on my wiring issues I removed the EC480 control panel above the sliding  entrance door to gain access to awning light wiring. I had read previously  that others had issues with this panel being damaged by damp with the cct board being covered in green gunge. Guess what , there is no insulation beyond the perforated  roof headlining portion of the roof ! This whole void along the length of the door entry  is just bare metal roof showing . From past experience condensation forms on the inner surface of the metal roof in cold weather  . This then drops/drips directly onto the rear of the control panel probably causing early failures. 
     Its worth taking out the ec480 by gently  levering off the bezel and the 2 fixing screws . This leaves a letterbox aperture that can be used to introduce some much needed insulation . Shame on A/s for shoddy build in the first place but apart from damp could also  lead to failure of an expensive control panel. No doubt will be relevant to those with newer control panels and also other models of PVC with a plywood  box section formed above sliding door entrance housing control panels etc. One can only assume the void behind overhead lockers is exactly the same . Dont they ever learn from 50 years experience or does 60 thousand pounds not buy you a quids worth of insulation ?   

In that situation, I would be tempted to take the control panel out and spray the PCB with a conformal coating (just fancy words for a clear lacquer that can be soldered through if the board needs repair) such as this:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

But of course, most owners won't know that they have a potential condensation problem until it's too late...

Already done Roopert , followed by a dusting of water dispersant   and a pvc flap  fixed above to deflect any potential drips in future!  Then again we should not have to...

hi Kaspian, any chance of a photo of what you discovered? or is it a bit late now? a picture as they say  " paints a thousand words". thanks for the information and detailed tips.
also what and how much insulation did you use? any more info would be great thanks.

Hi Babian , will try and get my ancient phone to link with even more ancient laptop and upload a photo or two. I had some dacron car/camper insulation left from our last van so used that but you can buy it online . Looks like the type of wadding found in some cushion fillings but does not absorb water. I bought a roll online but you can buy it by the meter. Worth checking your van as it literally takes 30 seconds to remove the control panel to view.

hi, thanks for that. took the truma panel out once and thought, that's just metal body work behind it !!!! good idea with the " flap" too deflect the drips by the way. look forward to the Kodak photos...ha ha.

more -   'shake it like a Polaroid picture'  pm sent!

Kaspain 
like you said they use Dacron that's used in pillows beds etc. I have done above my door to it only had about a third of the area covered did you not have any

zero, zilch, nada,  zip , nice shiny paint only the full width of the door and about 6 inches wide ! I will bet that all hidden areas behind the overhead lockers have no insulation either...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]a bit like this?

Sadly no Chris A/s use white dacron /polyester wadding insulation which looks like glassfibre loft insulation without the itch! or in my case rely on a coat of paint a few microns thick for insulation. ....see below , just for you Babian![You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Dear me, is that the grade three thermal insulation ?

I know that this reply is not going to fit with the "theme" of this thread, but I'm going to say it anyway, if only to add an alternative way of thinking about the issue:

I would suggest that A/S designers know quite well where insulation has significant benefit and where it doesn't, and so they target the insulation for the places where it is likely to produce big results.

The problem with small (in relative terms) voids like that in a metal-skinned vehicle is that steel is a much, much better conductor of heat than air.

What happens is that in spaces like that, the inside and outside skins are joined at the edges, all round the void, and the heat flow around the edges makes the heat loss (or gain for that matter) via the air space in the middle insignificant.

I suspect that what you are seeing is A/S choosing not to fill that void because it will make a negligible difference in the overall scheme of things.

The cost of doing it in a way that does not risk condensation accumulating and rusting the vehicle from the inside out does not justify the small benefit - in their assessment.

Sorry Roopert but no , any moisture in the air especially if you are living/breathing !  collects on the freezing  cold steel single skinned  roof during  cold damp/freezing  spells and promptly freezes. When the temp rises it then thaws out and large droplets of water start bombing the expensive control panel. No ifs/ buts or excuses please , in this case someone just forgot to add any. A festering control panel a couple of years later and it is us who pick up the tab.

I'm not making excuses - I'm just being open-minded and attempting to think about the issue in a different way.

The main point of what I was saying didn't relate to condensation. It related to the heat flowing via the metal skin, around any insulation, thus making insulation pointless (in relative terms) in small metal-skinned voids.

I agree that condensation is an issue that should have been considered, but I'm not convinced that adding insulating material is a good way to address that (because it may just trap condensation against the metal skin).

Because of the cold spell the single skinned uninsulated  area was already sweaty due to me working in the van on and off the last few days .  I used to hate working from a Transit van in winter . Tools and wet weather clothing were put inside wet . After a cold spell the inside roof area acted like a dehumidifier and took all the moisture in the van and condensed out on the freezing skin of the roof. Sometimes it was like a layer of snow inside on the roof. Of course when it thawed you got rained upon for days! This soggy cycle continued until a dry windy day when leaving the van doors open as much as possible finally removed the moisture!  
         I have just spent 3 hours running some  new wires behind the kitchen area from roof to floor , not for the faint hearted but on closer examination , as far as I can see with an endoscope the accessible areas are insulated to a degree so not as bad as initially feared  insulation wise. I would still check that void spoken about though as it amounts to around 3 square feet of single skinned metal roof.

Kaspian, thanks for taking the trouble too download the " interesting " photos. I'll get the screw drivers out to have a look also.
now to insulate or not to insulate the void?
I do like this type of forum post. Once we all put our heads together we will come to an agreed solution.
one nil too you Kaspian for highlighting the issue and the pvc " drip deflector, great idea.
hope the lighting issue is resolved?
yes our works transit rear roof ( bare painted metal) gets lots of condensation build up during winter / Autumn on the inside.
surely coach builders have the experience to know where to put insulation, vapour barriers, sound deadening and open voids to aid venterlation and human habitation ????
answers on a postcard as they say.
thanks again kaspian for your photos.

when I dropped the  roof lining down to put a aerial cable across to above the door this did look ok . I did have just a small bit of dacron in the top curve of the inner skin in your second picture but nothing in the large area behind the control panel. the back doors I removed what a/s fitted and filled the whole area .i have not done the side door a job still to do.  people think this is a well insulated  van when being told its grade 3 .now I have done my back doors and made insulation for all the windows the rear shower area is much warmer in my kemerton so yes it is worth doing anybody reading this post .you can get dacron with heat reflective foil on one side this works well

yes glyne this has been discussed previously grade 3 insulated seemingly  refers more to how powerful a heater is fitted to achieve the required temperature in a set time . In effect you could have a cabriolet van  but heated by a jet engine exhaust and pass the test from what I understand!  On running new wiring today I used an endoscope to probe anywhere I could as sockets grills etc were all removed for access behind inside wall panels . It actually seemed ok insulation wise in fairness to A/s. No glaring omissions evident.

   Hi Babian glad you like the photos!  Please dont start a points scoring system!  not my style  but instead just tried to  highlight a possible cause of reported failures in control panels that exhibited green gunge on contacts carrying power. Whether you choose to put a bit of insulation in is personal but my roof was cold and 'sweaty damp' in these conditions where it has rained /froze/ sleet/snow/froze  etc for over 10 days. I put  the dacron insulation  in after drying out  roof .   Just pulled it back today to run a wire and it is bone dry and does not even feel as cold as previously .
    I had researched insulation in home build vans previously  and they go overboard insulating everything and topping all  with a continuous vapour barrier. No way are our vans built to this level. Half of my problems over the last few days working in the van have been battling bitter cold with all doors closed etc.  Not the sign of great insulation  as on turning heating off the  van was like an icebox in under   5 mins! I can  understand they put nothing in the front cab doors as water leaks past lower window seals and might end up holding damp in   but sliding side door should be fully insulated , no excuse. Will need to check at some time..
    I would love to do a factory tour to see them being built. Dont know if A/s allow it but have been twice when Explorer group did their open days at Consett and it was fascinating to see how they are built.

yes I would be up for a autosleeper factory tour, would be interesting. I'm sure the tours are for current new van purchasers , I would have to win the lotto or lie a great deal..ha ha.
I liked the chance to see your photos , thanks again for taking them. I sure did not like the empty void they showed.
I will be using the Dacron insulation / drip reflector idea so again thanks for pointing the issue out to us all.
as I work round our van ( doing up loose fixings, curing rattling blinds, tracing wiring etc ) I'll be seeing where I could use up the remainder of the Dacron roll.

There's a few vids on YouTube about self-builds, one of them, a couple of guys in Poland
(read cold winters) converting a new panel-van, the very first thing they did was to loose an amazing amount of fibreglass insulation by stuffing it into every orifice they could find, & they really crammed it in!!
A thick insulated floor followed by a  'normal' build  from then on.
Comfortable in summer and winter I imagine.

Hi Babian , a whole roll of dacron insulation is not cheap but you can buy it by the meter on the likes of e bay.  Sold by many by weight ie 2,4 and 8  oz choose the heaviest available and in 2 widths 27 or 54 inch -  or easier to visualize some sell as  thickness , ie 35mm as this is what seems to have been used where they could be bothered!  A tin of spray adhesive will keep it in contact with the metal skin overhead.Now I know how to insert photos may do a few ' how to' pictures in future!  
    Yes Modelman agree totally although fibreglass wool seems to be frowned upon as it tends to hold water  , Kingspan seems to be popular too if not the cheapest choice. One thing is common though , every area of the inner skin is insulated to avoid pockets where cold bare metal will act as a dehumidifier in freezing weather and gather condensation promoting damp and rust.

Good morning all, strange that the EC480 panel issue should appear, just had EC480 from my 2017 Kemerton XL returned after repair for same failure, agree with Roopert these panels should be conformally coated (standard process for military PCB's or use in harsh environment applications). Whilst on a similar theme of poor build quality / attention to detail I will just mention another issue which fellow members may wish to check on their own vans, we found all our bedding under the front bench seat completely soaked, investigation revealed the waste pipe from the sink had separated and had been discharging its entire contents inside the van, removing panels revealed no clips or any form of support for the pipework, the joints were not even glued. I did e-mail A/S about both issues, the response was not particularly helpful.

Oh yes Mikee, that old chestnut!  Yes  we had that occur in our 2014 Kemerton . Our 2017 Warwick is the same so they have not learned . Even a thin wipe with some silicon sealer at the joint on assembly would help but still allow removal later for service. We used a couple of small wood blocks and some cable straps to effectively lock all sections of the waste pipe together. 
      Proves what I said about the insulation or lack of it is valid though re panel failure.

kaspian wrote: 
    Yes Modelman agree totally although fibreglass wool seems to be frowned upon as it tends to hold water  , Kingspan seems to be popular too if not the cheapest choice. One thing is common though , every area of the inner skin is insulated to avoid pockets where cold bare metal will act as a dehumidifier in freezing weather and gather condensation promoting damp and rust.

Hmm, i'm not convinced re that comment, where is that  'water' coming from? Condensation develops from warm air contacting cold surfaces, if the interior is crammed tight with fibreglass then there is no air at all, let alone warm air, I'd liken it to those stick-on insulated panels for doors etc. No condensate can form on the metal as there's no air-gap.  HOWEVER, on our loosely packed MHs, there IS all lot of space all around, so then yes, there will be condensation leading to the possibility of damp in places. I suppose SOME insulation is better than no insulation.