Second leisure battery

Libraryman2 wrote:Haha...unblock him, I want a battery....lol

All have a great Chrimble and a great new year.
To you AllaFEvans; enjoy your children whilst you can, I missed my chance due to too much work...I hope that your children remember your happiness with them.

Ray

Ray, thank you, Happy Christmas to you and all.

You can be absolutely sure I am making the most of every last minute. Loads of photos, etc. Despite the not so great news in August, we have had an amazing summer and set up for a fantastic Christmas. Doing every thing we can together.


My two are so excited about updating the web site to add the question to the Competition page at 11:00 today and they will then be watching to see who wins their Lollipop, so please someone enter or they will be upset.  

Can someone else add the links to the competition page, if it's allowed, please?

I think the AS owners forum should be absolutely delighted to have Allan Evans as a contributing member here. I tried to point members here in the direction of the AandN website in the recent ‘to charge or not to charge’ thread as so much very useful information is there to refer to and read on the subject. Some members here valued what they found, others didn’t. That is quite fair enough. Nobody has the monopoly on good ideas or good information and why anyone would think to say ‘by the end of the thread you need a degree in electrical engineering’ after someone has taken the time and gone out of his way to pass on extremely useful detailed information is beyond my understanding.
 
I read many Forums as well as this one and have come across Allan Evans on many occasions. I have never seen him try to sell anything or promote his company but simply refer to it as a source of reference to anyone who want’s to read it, all totally unbiased and based on proven experience in his opinion. If a reader sees it as too complicated and needing a degree on the subject he/she only needs one click to go off to read something else.
 
I understood, though I could be wrong, that due to his ill health Allan had stopped working in his business more or less and handed it over to a partner. The amount of time he must spend posting on forums and helping people is a credit to his kindness and generosity in my opinion. I feel criticism of his efforts is both unjust and unfair, but surely, we are all entitled to our own opinion and good manners cost nothing.

willconquerer wrote: 
I understood, though I could be wrong, that due to his ill health Allan had stopped working in his business more or less and handed it over to a partner. The amount of time he must spend posting on forums and helping people is a credit to his kindness and generosity in my opinion. I feel criticism of his efforts is both unjust and unfair, but surely, we are all entitled to our own opinion and good manners cost nothing.

Hello Willc. Thank you.
You are correct, when I was first diagnosed as terminal, I did hand over the reins to Martin our Electronics Engineer so I could spend all the time possible with my children during the Summer Holidays.
But once they went back to school I got bored during the day, so have started helping out Martin occasionally with the work on motorhomes, while he focuses on the workbench based electronic repairs.

I have a Swift coming in once the holidays finish that will be interesting as it has 4 batteries, which are not charging properly.
Hopefully the owner will allow me to document what issues we find and the causes.

Out of interest, what type of charger is fitted to my vehicle, the manual says it’s an ec 500 power unit and an Px300 charger?

So is it a px300?...
Actually I only have the std 2 batteries, I had considered fitting another leisure battery so this thread has been very useful.

Ray

One of the other posts on batteries running down when supporting a Tracker, etc. had a post from someone who said that EHU should not be used to support such a motorhome or the batteries will cook.
We think EHU with a Tracker/Alarm is an ideal solution where the batteries won't cook.  
I can't update that thread as it has been locked, so will put something in here.

When batteries are left on long term Float in storage, Yuasa say the batteries will lose capacity and degrade.
They write -
"Batteries used in these applications should be changed every 2 years or more frequently. (Continuous charging, even from a well-controlled charging system, will result in internal degradation of the battery.  This could result in the battery not giving its predicted output when required even though the battery appears to be fully-charged)".
That is for batteries that are not being used, and solely applies to batteries that are totally idle in storage but still being 'Force charged' on Float.


It is obvious that a battery that IS being used will need, and benefit, from being charged.

A Tracker and Alarm running from a habitation battery WILL draw power from the battery that needs to be put back. 
Sometimes, just leaving the ECxxx on and in 'Smart' battery charge mode will be enough to take the edge off the 'overcharge'. 
Obviously doing both will cause significant discharge on the battery ensuring the Float charge that actually enters the battery will be miniscule and non damaging.
 

So if anyone has an issue with the batteries discharging because they are looking after some load or other, it is ok to use EHU long term.

The long term degradation of battery capacity from Solar or EHU charging only applies to long term storage where the batteries are totally idle.

Obviously using the vehicle on 'permanent' EHU while in Spain for 3 months falls into the battery needing to and benefiting from a charge, so you don't need to turn off the charger if you are using the vehicle.

Paulmold wrote:Willconquerer - 
Peter said earlier 'As I've said many times on this forum, most readers aren't tuned in to the finer points of technical theories, they would just like sound practical and economic advice from those who have been there before.'. And that's what I was adding to with my comments about a degree. If you go back to the original question of this thread, do you not think that the poster may have been scared off by the technical responses, seeing as he has not been back.

Well Paul ! I've read it again....twice, all the way through.....and If I were the original poster I would be very happy with the answers as well as interested in how it developed. It might not be his opinion but I don't see him coming back to complain, so you might consider that he is happy, or not,he can always ask again. I actually think that it would be good if you and Peter read it all through again, with an open mind, because I feel that just like me there are plenty of other people interested in the technicalities and finer points on many subjects. I'm not partial to being told what I want as well, and I would be grateful if you can explain the facts and basis of your and or Peter's global statement of "what most people want"

This is one of the most interesting threads I have read on here actually, but I accept others may not be interested in it. Are you stuck for space on here  I wonder. There's not always a lot of new subjects, it would be nice for me if there were a lot more.

To have new subjects to read, requires members to post them.

Libraryman2 wrote:Out of interest, what type of charger is fitted to my vehicle, the manual says it’s an ec 500 power unit and an Px300 charger?

So is it a px300?...
Actually I only have the std 2 batteries, I had considered fitting another leisure battery so this thread has been very useful.

Ray

Ray, That sounds like it's a Sargent PX300, multi stage charger, but does not have any 'intelligence' so is not a Smart charger.

You are wise to think about the load you put on it, because it has proven to be limited.

A story :
Swift have started rolling out AGM's and people are either specifying a second one or fitting one after purchase. The mains charger specified to look after the set-up is the Sargent PX300.

The problem is it was designed for Wet batteries and the current draw and voltage of a wet battery. Yet it is universally known that AGM batteries can try to draw up to twice as much current (that is how they achieve the claimed 'twice as fast' charging rate).

So you can imagine how a Sargent charger designed to look after 2 x 100Ah wet batteries, copes when the current draw is suddenly doubled with two 100Ah AGM batteries?

We saw a swift owner that came to us after having 3 x Sargent PX300's replaced one after the other under warranty. 
 The Dealer didn't quibble at replacing the charger, but couldn't explain (nor could Swift or Sargent) why the units had failed.

As soon as we simulated the usage the charger was being put to you could see on the ammeter that the poor thing was screaming it's Heart out and set to join the other three already replaced.

We have had more enquires about repairing PX300's than ever before, in what is normally a 'Quiet' period.

So while the PX300 isn't a bad charger, we would put it in the budget section, suggest you treat one gently if you have one.


I am guessing that as the Swift AGM rollout progresses and the AGM's get a bit tired, the failure rate will increase dramatically.
It just isn't an AGM optimised charger by any stretch of the imagination, regardless of what Swift and Sargent might say.

I’ve learnt a lot from these posts, I have for a long time been opined by the case of the vehicle battery being fast charged and the apparent damage done to said battery be the resulting overheating!
Therefore I believed that slowcharging was the correct way.

However it seems that the best charge is an initial charge such the the battery is capable of accepting up to 18 volts for a ltd period but resulting in a charge of circa 100%..thereafter a float charge to maintain that level...the issue it appears is how to recognise the 100% level..
Is this the case?

Ray

willconquerer wrote:

Are you stuck for space on here  I wonder. There's not always a lot of new subjects, it would be nice for me if there were a lot more.

No Will.

Plenty of space - room for far more that the 34 you have posted in three and a half years! 

It would be just as nice for others if you posted more. I'm sure there's plenty of interest you could share with us all.

Common Gromit, don't belittle a member for only having 34 posts in 3 years, it makes you look like a stalker.
This thread makes me question why I should be part of this forum.
I do not post a lot but only do so when I feel I can contribute something to a thread, I do not make inane comments.
I respect you Gromit from way back in Facts but as being a relativity new member I am feeling that a clique exists here

Clique? I don’t get that feeling at all.

What I find difficult to cope with is very lengthy posts which deviate from the topic in hand into side issues. There are a couple of posters I’ve seen do this on a regular basis and it detracts from the points they try to make which means us lay people can struggle and give up.

Sorry but that’s my view.

Gromit, I have to agree with Andy in that you are acting like a bully, belittling another member.
I believe in talking to people on forums in the same way you’d talk to them face to face - I doubt many of the ‘moderators’ would dare talk to someone face to face in the way they do on here.

Libraryman2 wrote:I’ve learnt a lot from these posts, I have for a long time been opined by the case of the vehicle battery being fast charged and the apparent damage done to said battery be the resulting overheating!
Therefore I believed that slowcharging was the correct way.

However it seems that the best charge is an initial charge such the the battery is capable of accepting up to 18 volts for a ltd period but resulting in a charge of circa 100%..thereafter a float charge to maintain that level...the issue it appears is how to recognise the 100% level..
Is this the case?

Ray

Ray, to answer you honestly, it's both.
Slow charging is the best way to longest battery life at 'normal' temperatures. Fast charging raises the battery Plate temperature making that the fast way to degradation.

Victron publish a chart that shows how just a 20 degree rise at the Plates will reduce their AGM battery life from 7 years to just 2 years. That is a lot of lost life for a battery temperature that won't even feel warm to the touch.
 
However, if the battery temperature can be kept low, then charging at about 16v is both fast without lost life.
If you holiday in Iceland in January, then fast charging is absolutely no issue. You would be able to use the batteries for about 2 days and then charge them on a generator within about 3 hours, very quickly.

If you live in Scotland and put your vehicle on long term EHU through the Winter the degradation may be less than a Solar Panel 'maintaining' batteries through the Summer in Spain.

However, if you holiday in Portugal in 40 degrees in July, then even a slow charge will be an issue for some batteries.
Temperature really is key.

 
As for achieving 100% charge? - How hard it is to achieve depends on the charger, the battery technology, the battery age, size, etc.

Most RV multistage chargers, and remember around 50% of all Caravan and Motorhome chargers are single stage fixed 13.8v units, will get a quality, new battery up to 100% fairly easily, although the last 15% will be slower.
But it's a different picture with a 'budget' battery at about 18 months old, when getting past 90% charge will be a struggle. Add on a second poor battery and it will be a mountain to climb.

A new quality battery in laboratory conditions behaves very differently to a poor quality battery at 18+ months old, many people quote the 'laboratory ability', not real world performance.

The usual 2 year old 'four battery bank' on a typical 18amp multistage charger will rarely achieve more than 80% charge, even after days of charging. We have seen them as low as 60% charged.
Boosting the voltage to 18v in the later charging stages will improve this, but temperature will need to be tightly controlled to avoid shortened life.

Will complains that, "it would be nice for me if there were a lot more" and I point out that it would be just as nice for others if they were able to enjoy more of his contributions.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing to do with being a Moderator. Just an observation.

Gromit, stop hiding behind words and playing word games - it doesn’t matter how many times someone contributes to the forum.
As I said, if people on here were actually talking face to face they wouldn’t be such supercilious, sycophantic know all’s.

PS, given the opportunity I would have no trouble to say this to you face to face.

It’s a shame that this excellent debate has turned into a slanging match, it’s arisen because one member disagreed with the comments and rudely questioned the morals of a poster!
It’s then been taken on by several moderators is an attempt to quell the responses..

All absolutely unnecessary, let’s give it up.

Ray

Tinwheeler wrote:What I find difficult to cope with is very lengthy posts which deviate from the topic in hand into side issues.

But that's just a fact of forum life! The thing is that you've got lots of people, each in a different frame of mind, all trying to get their point across. One might be in a good mood, another might just have been rejected for promotion at work, and another might be just back from the pub. So it's only reasonable to expect that the occasional thread will go astray.

Compared to other forums, this one tends to stay pretty level and civilised. On some of the many other forums I'm on, you could expect the participants to be telling one another to xxxx off at about the fourth or fifth post so by comparison this one is pretty restrained.

StewPotch wrote:Gromit, stop hiding behind words and playing word games - it doesn’t matter how many times someone contributes to the forum.
As I said, if people on here were actually talking face to face they wouldn’t be such supercilious, sycophantic know all’s.

PS, given the opportunity I would have no trouble to say this to you face to face.

Well said StewPotch your words are true.  I would suspect, that there are many other members who would love to contribute and be involved in more posts on the ASOF. I would imagine that they, as I do, feel they would be intimidated and belittled by certain member/s who pertain to know all, and act as if they do and when brought to task get insulting. Actually I would also say the same things to these people face to face and probably will get the chance in future. 

I cast my mind back to last year and remember when your genuine case with A/S about a fractured gas pipe union in your van and the leak it caused. This was ridiculed by a certain " staff member " who knew nothing about your claim/ case, yet assumed you had done it yourself - that's very unhelpful.  Yes this was the same so called " staff member " that was involved then, as he is in this thread, and I know that it caused you a lot of injustice. And I also know that your case with A/S was 100% genuine - I could not believe this pipe union fracture when I saw it. It is still there for all to read and I members do. This cannot be allowed to continue anymore whereby he whips up a storm with his comments about other members and then just runs away and leaves all to squabble amongst themselves - that's cowardly to say the least. Okay the mods will say this is not the place to air members grievances, but where else can this be brought to attention on this forum, nobody will listen it has become like an " old boys club " I will probably be thrown off myself for this, but do I really care - no because I write the truth.

I am really sorry to see how this thread is developing. I joined the forum soon after I ordered my Lancashire in late 2011 and found it invaluable in learning about many of the idiosyncrasies of A/S vans before mine arrived. As a result I was better equipped to deal with some of the inevitable issues when I got my van. That was despite having nearly 40 years experience with caravans and a motorhome at that time. In the first year or so I took information from the forum and contributed very little. As my hands on knowledge of A/S has developed so have I contributed more I reckon that I am more than averagely practical - but not all folk are practical and many don't have pertinent experience to share. That's fine by me -- I am very happy to help solve problems and don't expect everyone to be the same. Inevitably those who are willing to give time to respond to problems will clock up more posts but that does not make them better and I don't perceive them as being cliquey.
I think that this is a helpful and useful forum and would like it to continue as such and to remain friendly

Totally off topic now but I feel that I have to say.....
Definitely  a clique on here. 
I learnt this last year when I posted something that this same staff member then took it the wrong way and suddenly all his disciples appeared out of the woodwork. I was hit with the bold typing and even got accused of being arrogant all because I stood up to him. 
It was nice to receive private messages of support so I know I am not
the only one that feels that way about this certain member.
I rarely post on here now in case I upset anyone in the clique.
Admin... If I have overstepped the mark with this post then feel free to kick me out. Your loss not mine.
And Merry Christmass to you all

It's a shame this had to spill over past midnight. It's a lovely crisp moonlit night down here and all is quiet, save for the traditional sound of revellers throwing up as they pass my house on their way back home.

Not really a time for grudges and recriminations. Hopefully it's a chance for all to forgive and forget about the occasional (probably accidental) slights.

I don't personally know any of the Staff Members here, but I do know (from work I do on another forum) that it's very difficult to keep everyone on a forum happy all of the time, and I'm sure they do their best to keep things in order, without any reward for the time that they spend here.

Hope you all have a happy, peaceful Christmas.

Gromit wrote:Will complains that, "it would be nice for me if there were a lot more" and I point out that it would be just as nice for others if they were able to enjoy more of his contributions.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing to do with being a Moderator. Just an observation.

I believe your question; “What’s wrong with that?” has already been answered Gromit.
 
 
Thanks for you’re support; AndyRoyd, StewPotch and Mindhyg, I have to say…….. unfortunately……. I think the terms ‘predatory, stalker and snide’, along with the eloquent adjectives supercilious and sycophantic, as mentioned, are appropriate. I’m humbled by your kindness in supporting me.
 
 
I only spoke on this thread to support AllaFEvans whose welcome to this Forum, I thought, was deplorable. I accept that posters may not have been aware of Allan’s state of health but in my opinion that which was aimed at him, regardless, was nothing short of rude and unforgivable. Good nature and good manners are free, and, well, yes, it is supposed to be the Season of Goodwill !
 
 
I was very happy with Paul’s initial response as he seemed to have resisted the temptation to enlighten further on the subject of ‘most people’ I thought OK, fair enough, more Threads are definitely needed here (long/short/non technical or technical) and planned to get asking the many questions I have up my sleeve to move thing’s forward on this forum.
 
 
Sadly, next, someone came along and spoilt all that and it’s difficult to find the will to post when you feel somewhat pilloried and singled out in a manner of such joie de vivre.
 
 
I am perplexed why some people want to demean themselves so easily on a public open forum.
 
 
Maybe a sick note would be acceptable for persons lacking in submitting sufficient posts on here? After Cancer, Radio Therapy, directly to the face, plus Chemo therapy, Osteo Arthritis and Fibromyalgia over the past three years, I feel confident that my surgeon, having performed 11 operations and removed large parts of my neck, shoulder and throat would be willing to provide me with one. I struggle to use a keyboard most days; I can grip but not touch/poke keys. You may analyse my nom de plume, devised by my wife, look at it as two separate words………………..I am determined to overcome the after and side effects that all this surgery and treatment has left me with.
 
 
I have had to ask my wife to type this, and she, unfortunately managed to read much of this thread. She asked………. “why on earth would you bother?” and to be honest I’m beginning to ask myself the same question. Thanks for reading this, and I’m sorry to feel the need to write this, especially today, Mojo, and the others writing the recent posts. You know how you have the feeling, it’s best to get it off your chest sometimes; hopefully no one will read it until the next few days have passed.
 
 
I still think this thread is really interesting and I will look forward to reading many more.
 
 
I wish you all a very Happy Christmas and a brilliant 2019.

This is indeed an unfortunate development. In part it is because one of the principal contributors to the debate is a Moderator. Thus when another Moderator warned that the thread might be cosed, it gave rise to the perception that the Moderators were supporting each other. Undeniably, as evidenced from the subsequent furore, that was not the Moderators’ finest hour.

PaulMold then helped by clarifying that the thread would not be closed, thus upholding the principle that “I disagree with what you say but I shall defend to the death your right to say it”.

I could not understand Allan’s detailed and constructive contributions because I am no physicist. But I it’s most unfortunate that what was doubtless intended as a positive series of posts has somehow led to this discourteous treatment - the first that I recall on what has always been The Friendly Forum.

As others have urged, let’s move on, asserting that all are welcome, and all views - as long as they are expressed with moderation and courtesy - are always likewise welcome.

Cymric