Re: Second leisure battery

by AllaFEvans Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:41 pm

Peter Brown wrote:The second worst, the EC325 which is of a very poor design and was quickly replaced with the EC328

We repair the EC325 and supply exchange rebuilt units, exactly because it is a fantastic design.

Designed and built in Holland by a really quality company, as a result one of the best Sargent has sold.

Very clever, sophisticated unit with in-built protection on almost every circuit.
Very strong, clever charger, probably the best charger used in a British made motorhome.

In our view the EC328 was a step backwards, but was easier and cheaper to produce and maintain, so you can't blame Sargent for going down that road and refusing to support the EC325 because it is complex.

by Peter Brown Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:24 am

You are so wrong about this and having lived with an EC325 for 7 years I do know. It was a brilliant concept to fast charge the leisure battery but on hook up the load is disconnected from the leisure battery and energised by a separate power supply and a charger permanently connected to the battery(s). When long term on site you have to remember to keep switching off the charger to allow the batteries to discharge a bit and prevent them being damaged.

The EC328 reverted to a traditional float charge scenario that is much better for maintaining battery condition.

by AllaFEvans Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:16 am

Peter Brown wrote:You are so wrong about this and having lived with an EC325 for 7 years I do know. It was a brilliant concept to fast charge the leisure battery but on hook up the load is disconnected from the leisure battery and energised by a separate power supply and a charger permanently connected to the battery(s). When long term on site you have to remember to keep switching off the charger to allow the batteries to discharge a bit and prevent them being damaged.

The EC328 reverted to a traditional float charge scenario that is much better for maintaining battery condition.

But your experience is of an EC325 with a flawed battery bank set-up that will cause the charger to not work as it should. The fact it was 'over charging' when it shouldn't have been, surely tells you something is wrong with the battery set-up?

The 'Super Boost' charge feature of the EC325 only comes into effect when the battery is very low or poor. The rest of the time it performs like a normal charger.
I suspect your battery that completely failed was well well past it's best years before it actually broke up, it's behaviour would have been masked by the good battery, just needing to take a lot of charge.
I think what you saw was the poor EC325 working overtime to compensate for that battery?

When the EC325 is looking after a 'normally' set-up, it 'trickle/float' charges in the same way as other units, works very well.
We have repaired hundreds and almost all damage inside was caused by poor batteries or an overlarge battery bank.

If it was me, rather than defending a flawed set-up I would be looking at how I could improve things.

This very highly respected guy is not only a trained Electrical Engineer but a qualified Mechanical Engineer who also understands 12v batteries :
Google caravan chronicles and search the help pages for "how-to-connect-two-batteries-in-parallel".

He says
"if you are going to install a second battery, you are going to have to start with two new, identical batteries.
Same make, Amp hour (Ah) rating and if you can the same manufacture date.
Connecting batteries with different Ah ratings or from different manufactures is not a good idea as it can/will lead to one battery trying to charge the other (due to the internal forward and reverse resistance being different) and can lead to all sorts of other problems."

by Peter Brown Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:50 am

AllaFEvans wrote:
When the EC325 is looking after a 'normally' set-up, it 'trickle/float' charges in the same way as other units, works very well.

A constant trickle charge with no load will gas off the electrolyte over a couple of months. You can't float charge a battery without a load connected.

The output voltage on the 325 can reach 18v which is why the battery has to be disconnected form the load before being connected to the charger. Brilliant idea in theory but doesn't work in practice in a motorhome.

PS AllaFEvans it seems to me that your are some sort of company advertising your services, is that correct?

by Paulmold Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:58 am

Peter Brown wrote:

PS AllaFEvans it seems to me that your are some sort of company advertising your services, is that correct?

Aandncaravanservices as referred to earlier in thread by biffobear.
A major contributor to the MMM forum outandaboutlive.

by AllaFEvans Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:12 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
AllaFEvans wrote:
When the EC325 is looking after a 'normally' set-up, it 'trickle/float' charges in the same way as other units, works very well.

A constant trickle charge with no load will gas off the electrolyte over a couple of months. You can't float charge a battery without a load connected.

The output voltage on the 325 can reach 18v which is why the battery has to be disconnected form the load before being connected to the charger. Brilliant idea in theory but doesn't work in practice in a motorhome.

PS AllaFEvans it seems to me that your are some sort of company advertising your services, is that correct?

The 18v 'Boost Charge' on the EC325 ONLY comes in to effect if the batteries tell it they need it because they are very low, which obviously a poor battery might and a good battery wouldn't. They trickle at the same rate as any other charger.

Yes we know all about Long term EHU and were advising against it in 2013, when we received stacks of flack from people saying we were wrong. See the web pages.

As for me? I have been battling Colon Cancer since 2016, but in August this year I was told secondaries had spread to my Lings, Spleen and Liver.
Because it was so extensive and advanced I was given months to live.
I didn't expect to see October, but am now planning the best Christmas ever with my two young children, 7 and 8 years old.

So no, not advertising anything, just telling you my background and skill levels which so you so obviously and so cruelly dismissed when someone else first referred to our web pages.
You were dismissive in a very callous manor without even trying to find out who I was or what I did.

Now I suspect you are looking for ways to end our membership of this forum?

by Peter Brown Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:02 pm

I'm truly sorry to hear about your personal circumstances. I don't know who you are so I could not have been aware.

We will have to agree to disagree on this topic and probably best to cease the debate.

I am not a person who will condone or carry out any form of censorship just because someone has a different view to me and that I can (could but wont).

by -mojo- Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:44 pm

Setting aside the issue of personal circumstances which nobody here could have been aware of...

The EC325 may be very clever in a technical sense, but probably its biggest flaw is that the fast offline charger solves a problem that most users should never experience. If they have any sense, most users won't ever use the battery so heavily that it needs to be recharged from deep discharge - and if they do, generally they won't need it to be done ultra-quickly. Typically when using EHU on site, they will be on EHU for an evening and then overnight, so ultra-fast charging isn't important.

Another problem for the EC325 is the simple, straight fact that owners do not read the manual! So you always run the risk of people wiring things directly to the leisure battery, not realising that these things will have to endure 18 Volts when most "12 Volt" appliances will not have been designed to withstand more than 15V at most.

I should add that, from personal experience, long-term connection to EHU for battery maintenance should not be an issue if you have a modern, multi-stage charger. My current van is now 6 years old, has the original leisure battery which is still in acceptable condition and yet has been kept on EHU via a Sargent EC328, 24 hours a day - when not in use - since it was bought new.

by AllaFEvans Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:48 pm

Peter, you write,
"A constant trickle charge with no load will gas off the electrolyte over a couple of months".

Really?

We have never come across any motor home or Caravan charger that will, " gas off the electrolyte over a couple of months".

Please show us all the evidence for such a statement?

We say on our web pages that leaving a vehicle on a modern powerful multi stage charger in long term storage will degrade a battery. As Yuasa state on their web pages, that effects capacity long term, not gassing off. But that depends on the battery technology, temperature, charger, etc. Exactly as it says on the web pages.

Never, ever seen any evidence to support what you say about a battery gassing off (battery gassing starts above 14.4v, little gas will be produced at the 13.8v which is the peak trickle charge of most chargers from Calira through Nordelettronica and Schaudt and Sargent. and certainly not "over a couple of months".

The Banner Energy Bull range use old fashioned High Antimony content as their prime technology and this type of construction is renowned for suffering Antimony poisoning on long term charge, but even these won't gas at 13.8v, unless Antimony poisoning damage has already occurred.

The other day you also replied to another battery question saying they arrive fully charged new from a retailer.
They don't.

We have fitted hundreds and NEVER seen a fully charged habitation battery.
They are usually around 85% charged or less which is why manufacturers say to charge them either prior to fitting or give them 24 hours on EHU ASAP.

by Gromit Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:03 pm

Peter Brown wrote:We will have to agree to disagree on this topic and probably best to cease the debate.

Hi AllaFEvans

What Peter said above makes sense.

I think this thread has run its course, and nothing further will be gained by worrying at it like a terrier with a rat . . . other than further to confuse electrically ignorant peasants like me. scratch head

Please leave it now or I shall close the thread.

by Mindhyg Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:15 pm

I have enjoyed reading AllaEFvans expert comments on this thread. Is this the way the forum is now being run, whereby all the mates/ moderators gang together against another member and threaten to close the thread because he is corrective in his comments. Please don't close this thread Gromit. We need experts on the forum and I hope that AllaFEvans does not take offence to the onslaught one particular " staff member " has thrown at him and which is the same sort of behaviour I have seen aimed at other members who are correct in the past.

by landyman Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:29 pm

Mindhyg wrote:I have enjoyed reading AllaEFvans expert comments on this thread. Is this the way the forum is now being run, whereby all the mates/ moderators gang together against another member and threaten to close the thread because he is corrective in his comments. Please don't close this thread Gromit. We need experts on the forum and I hope that AllaFEvans does not take offence to the onslaught one particular " staff member " has thrown at him and which is the same sort of behaviour I have seen aimed at other members who are correct in the past.

by AllaFEvans Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:41 pm

Mindhyg wrote:I have enjoyed reading AllaEFvans expert comments on this thread.

Mindhyg, Thank you. Very much appreciated. Merry Christmas to you.

by StewPotch Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:41 pm

If this thread is closed because there is a reasonable disagreement (no one is offending anyone) between a professional M/H engineer and a member of staff, then what’s the point in having an open forum?
You’d be as well as Just making it clear to new members not to have a different opinion than ASOF staff/Mods and they’ll be made welcome.

by AllaFEvans Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:08 pm

StewPotch wrote:If this thread is closed because there is a reasonable disagreement (no one is offending anyone) between a professional M/H engineer and a member of staff, then what’s the point in having an open forum?
You’d be as well as Just making it clear to new members not to have a different opinion than ASOF staff/Mods and they’ll be made welcome.

StewPotch, thank you, but I will desist for now.

I don't know if everyone is aware that we don't sell batteries but we do rate them based on our experiences with them, However, Alpha batteries have made available a new Yuasa L36-EFB in a free to enter competition to say thank you to everyone who has supported them this year.

The Yuasa L36-EFB is our latest 'Best Buy Medium range" battery, because in a Summer evaluation it made the outstanding Varta LFD90, our "Best Budget Buy", look the poor relation.

For details of how to enter the competition to win the battery, just Google "a and n caravan battery competition" and you should find a link to the webpage. You need to be quick, it expires at 11:00 tomorrow.

It is a genuine thank you from Alpha, and just like the rest of the website, has no advertising, etc

by Paulmold Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:07 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree on this topic and probably best to cease the debate.

Who was it who couldn't leave it? It wasn't Peter. Here we have two experienced people, one with over 40 years working with battery powered systems and one with a lifetimes work in motorhome/caravan electrics. Both believing themselves right so nothing to be gained by continuing the debate, simply agree to disagree.
Curious how our new member suddenly got involved after his company link was given, presumably someone told him of the reference to his company. Is it any wonder that some members were a little unwelcoming?
I'll not close the thread but hopefully it will be allowed to come to a natural end.
Merry Christmas.

by Libraryman2 Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:57 pm

Please don’t end this topic, I’m enjoying reading the techno bit...it’s informative and dam interesting..
I say chill out...it’s cool, can the experts in this debate, come to look at the positives and find some common agreement?
At the moment I don’t know who’s right but I suspect you could both have positive points and I’m learning by reading it.
Ray

by AllaFEvans Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:08 am

Paulmold wrote:
Peter Brown wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree on this topic and probably best to cease the debate.

Who was it who couldn't leave it? It wasn't Peter. Here we have two experienced people, one with over 40 years working with battery powered systems and one with a lifetimes work in motorhome/caravan electrics. Both believing themselves right so nothing to be gained by continuing the debate, simply agree to disagree.
Curious how our new member suddenly got involved after his company link was given, presumably someone told him of the reference to his company. Is it any wonder that some members were a little unwelcoming?
I'll not close the thread but hopefully it will be allowed to come to a natural end.
Merry Christmas.

Paul, You will note that I did not return to the original argument on configuring a second battery and how chargers can react to that, so I did leave it alone. I did exactly as was asked.

Peter made a new comment, on a new subject to which I asked for the evidence to support what he said, is that unreasonable?.
If the statement is sound and the evidence is there to support it, then I would be very happy to stand corrected.

You will find I am the first to apologise when shown to be wrong, I am clearly fallible.

I did not get involved after our "company link was given" but only when Peter and Brod had been openly critical and dismissive with the content of our website, so the emailer who contacted us asked if we had either got it wrong or were we explaining things poorly?
We get feedback from people all the time who know more than us, with corrections or extra information to add to the web pages. Some are true technical battery specialists involved in battery R&D and Design.

by AllaFEvans Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:16 am

Libraryman2 wrote:Please don’t end this topic, I’m enjoying reading the techno bit...it’s informative and dam interesting..
I say chill out...it’s cool, can the experts in this debate, come to look at the positives and find some common agreement?
At the moment I don’t know who’s right but I suspect you could both have positive points and I’m learning by reading it.
Ray

Libraryman2, Thank you, but I am not sure that is going to happen.

However, if you Google 'A and N caravan services add a second battery' you will find a mass of information on exactly that subject.
At the bottom of the web page, it further covers the issues of both Alternator and mains charging, how to wire a second battery, plus how to optimise the charging of the battery bank having fitted it.

by Libraryman2 Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:20 am

Thank you sir...however, I’m as thick as the proverbial rocking horse
I can’t even figure out how to enter the bloody competition.....lol.

Ray

by AllaFEvans Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:23 am

Libraryman2 wrote:Thank you sir...however, I’m as thick as the proverbial rocking horse
I can’t even figure out how to enter the bloody competition.....lol.

Ray

Sorry, if I could I would make it easier on both counts by publishing links for you to follow, but I am currently blocked from posting links.

by Libraryman2 Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:32 am

Haha...unblock him, I want a battery....lol

All have a great Chrimble and a great new year.
To you AllaFEvans; enjoy your children whilst you can, I missed my chance due to too much work...I hope that your children remember your happiness with them.

Ray

by AutoSleepy_Don Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:34 am

-mojo- wrote:
kaspian wrote:its refreshing to see someone come on the forum who actually knows what they are talking about.

Hehehe - that's going to make everyone who's ever posted on this forum before AllaFEvans joined feel good about themselves, isn't it?

I was going to watch something on NetFlix but I'm just going to watch this thread now

by Paulmold Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:50 am

Nobody has blocked anybody. New members all have to wait 7 days before they can post links or send PM's. This is to stop self-promotion by companies or individuals.

by Libraryman2 Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:57 am

I know Paul, I was just being me...lol

Ray