PV panel locations on Boxer Symbol roof?

A solo  controller directs 100% of solar charging to the Leisure battery... where normally needed 100% of time.
The Battery Master just helps stop a flat vehicle battery as a bi-product.
Dual controllers need settings which most of the time will prevent Leisure battery getting maximum solar capability or else you will forever need to monitor and adjust dual settings. What price is a replacement battery which has gone totally flat?
 Hope you sort your system whichever you choose and enjoy your travels.

Marbarsymbol... thanks for that clarification on the Battery Master.

Y'know, I'm the kind of anal-retentive that likes to fully understand things before I start splashing the cash, devoting time and energy, or mistakenly initiating things that are difficult or expensive to reverse. But Electronics really are one of my major weaknesses. The variety of devices and combinations, for a variety of different applications, at different prices, from different manufacturers... leaves me a confused mess! If only there was some Electronics God that just said... buy A, B, & C... do X, Y, & Z; and jobs a goodun! If only.

Hi Pilchard , I know what you mean but having worked in electronics for over 40 years , problem is you ask expert A, B and C a question and they reply with X , Y and Z....  It doesnt get any easier....

kaspian... you are as cynical as I am. It is often true that whatever questions you ask, you risk getting answers to questions you didn't ask, or only answers to 10% of your questions.

But really, I've been getting some pretty good feedback on this thread. And even if there are those that might have no more suss on the subject than me, it's great to bounce thoughts and ideas about to see how they stand up.
I don't know how much expertise there is among those responding posters so far but, having cast my lure out there a number of times I might have just hooked an Electronics expert with over 40 years experience.

Ha! I have been there, asked the experts and never any 2 would agree! Usually left to us at the sharp end to make it work......while the project managers get the slaps on the back for a successful job!  Electronics covers a broad field out there and there are plenty on here with more practical experience of adding solar panels to a van .
         I have been looking into solar addition just today as it seems to be a hot topic .  Seems a fairly easy task to fit and connect and I almost was hooked as a weekend project but then reality returned. Ask yourself this ,do I truly  really need solar panels on roof ? If your van usage totally warrants it then go for it ! Unfortunately in my case I rarely camp off grid nowadays, have 240v available 6 feet from where van is stored and if ever I did camp more than a few days off grid would probably just take a second battery that I have lying around in a marine battery case.  In any case as we dont tow a ' toad' the van is usually our means of transport and would be used every couple of days on outings so top up charged via alternator.Everyones use is different however and if you must have it......
          Our previous van was used 4-5 days without 240v and powered an inverter to work tv and x box etc for a few hours at night and with kids in van not being that particular in saving battery power. No problems and never gave it a second thought at the time. Now if you read all the forum advice  it seems we need 500w solar arrays on the roof, a wind generator, 500ah battery pack and a 3kw generator in the boot as backup! I exaggerate somewhat but you get the meaning....good for playing top trumps motorhome edition down the pub!
       Just last week someone posted a link to an excellent site  that explained the  pros and cons of battery charging / buying batteries  etc but cant find it now- an excellent read by people a lot more qualified in that field to give advice who had actually dismantled batteries and charging systems and Now if I could only find it..... You seem as canny as I am ,  you will come to the right decision in the end but base it on what YOU need not what everyone says you must have!

pilchard wrote:Hi IanH. Thanks for the feedback and advice.
Re your comments:-
1. Why do you think the vehicle/starter battery will the "most likely" to need charging? We'll drive it every day while on any holiday/trip, and at least every week when not.

Hi Pilchard , it seems you answered your own  question - see above - if driven every day on holiday  and used weekly when home I dont honestly see a need to spend money needlessly, unless you have a particularly power hungry hobby , the van will be kept topped up by daily travel and weekly drives when not on holiday. Save the money buy diesel have more breaks away and enjoy!

As stated earlier by yourself,  if you drive every day on holiday then the vehicle's split charger will top up both batteries as you drive. So why waste money on a solar panel, controller and battery master ?

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Pilchard

4 of these = 120w, small enough to lay as your space allows

IanH... thanks, but although I'd get 2 of these 30w panels, each measuring 540 x 400 & costing £180 for the pair, with those two delivering 60w between them, into the back LH corner... I can just about get an 80w measuring 540 x 860 & costing £170 into the same space, delivering 20w more for £10 less. 
I wouldn't get a pair of your 30w jobs into the other space... where I'll be removing the aerial. I'll easily get a 50w 565 x 540 in though, but if I could find a similarly square format flexi delivering 60w... that'd probably fit.

How much power do you actually need to top up the battery? As has already been said, you are driving most days that should be enough to top up the leisure battery. Fit LED lights if you don't already have them. I never had a problem without hookup for weekends away with my Symbol which only had a panel I used when it was parked on the drive

Matchlessman (I assume some motorcycle here?)

The point I have been trying to make, and always do so, is that, whilst it is good to have solar when touring, its real reason, for me, at least is to charge both batteries when the Mh is NOT in use!!

It's all very well to say it'll be in continuous use, even I would admit to not having a solar panel on my car, for example, but, equally my early medieval Volvo has no drains to its battery either other than the self discharge of its battery.

You, it seems, are doing exactly what I am trying to say, you need to charge the battery(ies) when the vehicle is on your drive, and therefore, not in use!!

Just been in mine, after a horrendous week of weather, and both batteries are completely full. If I had wanted to use it in the last 10days at least, I couldn't have!!!

Just another couple of thoughts Pilchard.

Firstly, I always try to convince myself that I should wait until we have a problem before trying to fix it. Not always easy at a show or accessory shop when faced with all the "must have" goodies - many of which will end up cluttering the garage. (I'm admitting nothing!! ) The question is, "Are you convinced you really need a panel?" Only you can answer that. 

Secondly, arguably the most cost effective solution is a second battery, plus a Battery Master. The benefits of the second battery are obvious, and the Battery Master will almost guarantee that your vehicle battery will never go flat (under reasonably normal circumstances of course). It monitors both hab and vehicle batteries, and if the vehicle battery voltage drops more than a volt or two below that of the hab battery (I forget the exact figure) the BM diverts power from the hab battery to the vehicle battery. It's very much a fit and forget solution so you never turn the key on a dead vehicle battery and find yourself stranded, and if you have a single charge system you just leave it permanently selected to charge the habitation battery.

Just another opinion to add to all the others!   

If we need more options, I should refer to my preferred solution on older vans (typically pre-2006), which is simpler than fitting a Battery Master. That is to replace the split charge relay (as originally fitted by A/S) with a more modern bidirectional Voltage Sensing Relay.

The advantage here is that a single device can carry out the functions of the split charge relay AND a Battery Master, so there is less complexity and almost no additional wiring required. It means that any source of charging power (e.g. solar or EHU power supply) will also charge the vehicle battery, and the alternator will charge the leisure battery when the engine is running. Typically a VSR will also have a built-in switching delay which reduces the load on the engine alternator at startup too (typically there will be a short delay so that the alternator can put some charge into the engine battery before the leisure battery is connected - plus it will not connect the two until the vehicle battery voltage exceeds a threshold level).

We have had this setup on the Trooper for around a year now without any issues.

It's not a particularly good solution for vans which are more recent than around 2006, because from then the power controllers tend to have the split charge relay built-in, and it is less easy to take that out of circuit without other consequences - so I have not installed a VSR in the Celex (which has an EC328).

Gromit wrote:Just another couple of thoughts Pilchard.

Firstly, I always try to convince myself that I should wait until we have a problem before trying to fix it. Not always easy at a show or accessory shop when faced with all the "must have" goodies - many of which will end up cluttering the garage. (I'm admitting nothing!! ) 

Ha! Gromit, I'll bet you have a kitchen cupboard filled with goodies such as the Ronco roller measure, K-tel burger press, yoghurt maker , ice cream maker Rima grill etc etc Yes and I admit it too ' a fool and his money are easily parted

Yoghurt maker and ice cream maker I'll admit to. The ice cream maker gets occasional use, but we are trying to keep the weight off and it's incredibly fattening. 

I was wondering about one of  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]  Does yours work OK, or has it turned you into a Hobbit? 

At the risk of going completely off topic , yes it works great but I have broken my nose 3 times getting up to go to the loo and finding my feet tied together in a brown plastic box!   Found my Ronco roller measure last week , anyone want to measure the length of their ceiling?

Could it be powered by a solar panel though?

Back on topic - how nifty is that? 

Alright, alright, alright, alright.... alright!!! I give in! I'll get a dual battery controller... just to keep you all happy, and off my back.

Mojo... I've confessed that when it comes to electronikery-jiggery-pokery I'm not the sharpest knife in the box. I read your last post three times before I got it. Then 30 secs later it... just went somewhere else.
Nah... I know what you're saying, and I thank and respect you for trying, but I'll try to keep it simple... this time.

With respect, a solar panel / leisure battery set up proposed will not power a Fridge or Heater. You have stated you are not wanting a TV. What are your needs for 130 watt panel? Disco lights perhaps? I am intrigued to understand what flattens your leisure battery.

pilchard wrote:Alright, alright, alright, alright.... alright!!! I give in! I'll get a dual battery controller... just to keep you all happy, and off my back.

Mojo... I've confessed that when it comes to electronikery-jiggery-pokery I'm not the sharpest knife in the box. I read your last post three times before I got it. Then 30 secs later it... just went somewhere else.
Nah... I know what you're saying, and I thank and respect you for trying, but I'll try to keep it simple... this time.

In an abbreviation, hope this doesn't get me blacklisted..................TFFT!!!!!!

marbarsymbol wrote:With respect, a solar panel / leisure battery set up proposed will not power a Fridge or Heater. You have stated you are not wanting a TV. What are your needs for 130 watt panel? Disco lights perhaps? I am intrigued to understand what flattens your leisure battery.

Hi Marbarsymbol, I believe the saying is you can take a horse to water but..... and as The great sage Rab C Nesbitt says ' dont try and talk me roon by talkin sense to me!' 

Now now boys... don't get too exited. I didn't say I thought you were right.
In fact, I still think you're wrong.
 
What you are recommending is something that is right for you... probably because you have your van sitting around over winter doing nothing, or don't take it for a run every week. But I've never had a vehicle battery... car, van, campervan... go flat from lack of use... ever.
That isn't what I do. I've owned both motorhome and car at the same time, both parked on the drive, both in regular use, without starting problems. We deliberately bought a PVR so that we could kick the car into touch and just have the expense of one vehicle... dispite some obvious limitations. It's a money-saving thing.
No, the reason I have secumbed to the idea of a dual battery controller is because the additional cost isn't great and, if and when it comes to selling the van, the extra facility might appeal to a potential buyer; someone who might want to keep it in storage and not use it that much.

Hi Pilchard the thought that it  might make the van slightly more ' saleable ' I can understand but everything else you say , the regular weekly use , the daily use while on holiday,  with respect points to the fact that you do not need solar panels at all let alone a dbc!     This is what a few of us have been hinting at  and nudging you towards. Ultimately it is your call as you are splashing the cash but unless you can flatten a battery overnight due to some substantial undisclosed power usage the fact remains the van will cope as it is getting regular use . From your above  arguement it is me who needs solar power as the van sits for  weeks at a time without charge and from what I and others have experienced over the years it is not an issue. But each to their own

kaspia... I'll just offer a little further clarity on my propose usage, then I'll say no more because I suspect this has already become tedious for anyone watching from the wings.

The wife and I like long days out walking in the mountains. We like going to places like Scotland and one of our favourites is the Italian Dolomites. Check it out... it's mindblowing! We are also fairly impecunious/tight, & campsites in the Dollies (like many others these days) pretty expensive, but the law allows you to park up almost anywhere so long as you don't spill out and take up root. So the plan is to park up close to the start of some good circular walks... at one of the many roadside pull-ins and picnic spots that are frequented by the many highly oportunist tight-wad Italian Motorhomers in summer... in/near to a Cable-Lift car-park from where we can get up high quickly and then have a choice of umpteen circular walks. If this plan succeeds we will then succeed in not shifting the van for a few days at a time, and will not be charging the leisure battery from the alternator. Average daytime temps at those altitudes are 25 ish, and it can get pretty nippy on occasion at night. I've seen it snow there in summer. I have experience of a Propex heater fan easily draining a 100A/h battery in 2 days, so much so that I fit an additional 100A/h. But this van has no space for 200A/h worth of batteries and will have to suffice with it's weedy 75A/h under the seat. 
The real limiter, we hope, will be fresh water, grey water, and toilet waste capacities. There are ways of minimizing the impact of these, but I can't see us going more than 5 days wild camping without spending 2 on a campsite getting tanks emptied/replenished, battery charged on mains (if needed), copious hot showers and laundered clothing.
Capisch?
Similar thing in Scottish winters... but shorter days, less sunshine, and bloody cold.

That's enough on that I think.
John

Ah.... clarity..... now that explains it a bit better as from your initial response you said that the van will be driven daily on holiday and used as main vehicle when not. In that scenario I and others including symbol owners could see no logical  need for solar option and were just trying to save you some cash and hassle removing tv aerials linking several small panels etc  as you yourself  say you are 'canny'!!  
           I'm sure others rather than finding it tedious  , will be fascinated by your intended use , wish you had said earlier then we could have seen the logic/ need ,  sounds a great idea for holidays  in a beautiful area.
         If used for several days static/  off grid with constant heating etc and a 75ah battery I and other contributors will/ can now understand  your logic! Is there no way you could also up battery  capacity by putting another battery connected remotely in a cupboard or bed box corner? Just another idea as I know underseat storage is tight and driving a PVC myself,  space is at a premium and packing requires some thought. 
    Your planned trips sound fantastic if rather 'energetic'   All the best in your quest