PV panel locations on Boxer Symbol roof?

I naively thought that it'd be the techy-lektrickery part that'd have me on my toes and it'd be relatively easy finding panels to fit the roof of our Symbol... but not so. I'd been thinking anywhere between a 100 -150watt stick-on low profile flexi panel; or two to get get similar wattage. But have just been looking up top and there is very little space.
 
Anyone had this problem and... even better, found a solution?

What with the bathroom roof-light in Back LH corner, the omni tv aerial in front of that (Middle NS), the kitchen roof-light opposite that on the Middle OS, and the comparatively huge Heki roof-light positioned central and further foreward of those last two... there isn't much space.
These flexi panels will drape over front/rear/side roof profile curves if neccessary, but it seems they will only flex along one axis... usually the short one; but please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

So, it's looking like the only completely flat space available is the OSR corner measuring 80cm across and 60cm front to back, and a very slim 80cm across by 30cm front to back in front of the bid Heki. As we think we won't be using the TV aerial, we could remove it and that could free up another approx 60 x 60cm. Of course any suitable panels that are a little over length or width could curve over the roof profile and maybe curve an inch or two if really necessary... but not running down a foot or two, which would have less sun exposure, look ugly/daft, and probably too tight a curve anyway. 

So I s'pose I'm asking for solutions... like a supplier that has an incredible range of sizes of the most modern, high quality, high output, efficient, thin, flexible, lightweight, stick-on, cheap, sexy solar panels. Plus any tips from anyone that has had the same problem.

I have even less room on my Symbol so I bought a 100 watt folding one ( a la caravaner) that lives at home unless I'm going away for more than a couple of days. Practically new with very fancy integral controller. got it off Gumtree, usually better than Ebay if you search regularly plus you meet some very interesting folk, £100 the seller was moving from caravaning to an  A Class .

Not an option I'd want to entertain crosgor. We'll need to leave the van parked up in public places while we go all day walkies. If we leave it outside, it'll get nicked: if we stash it in the van through the day, it'll defeat the object.

So, after more research, measuring, templates etc, reading info pages on the Photonic Universe website... I might be nearly there.

It seems these semi-flexible panels will not curve enough, so the one I'd hoped for the front curve of the roof is out. 

I can still easily manage the 50 Watt one by removing the TV aerial.

I can, just about, get the 80 Watt, 860 x 540, on the rear off-side corner. It might need me to cut a small triangular notch out of the aluminium backing sheet, where it forms a generous border at the connection end, so it'll fit over a small raised obstruction in the moulding on the GRP roof by the bathroom sky-light. But I think it'll go; and anyway it's got to, because calculations suggest I'll need all of those 130 Watts.

Which controller is the next step. We don't plan to be leaving this PVC parked for months at a time, so can forget charging the starter battery. Going for a single battery controller also gives me a much better selection of controllers and... the MPPT ones seem to be the ones to go for as it's claimed they somehow (through the dark arts of electronickery) get more power out of the panels. 
Still have to decide which one though... so am looking for advice.

Can the PV Controller be wired into the van's system directly to the on-board charger system control panel? 
If so, the PV Controller could sit side-by-side with the existing control panel which is conveniently located above the van's rear doors... potentially less than a metre of cable away from the rear PV panel.

pilchard wrote:So, after more research, measuring, templates etc, reading info pages on the Photonic Universe website... I might be nearly there.

It seems these semi-flexible panels will not curve enough, so the one I'd hoped for the front curve of the roof is out. 

I can still easily manage the 50 Watt one by removing the TV aerial.

I can, just about, get the 80 Watt, 860 x 540, on the rear off-side corner. It might need me to cut a small triangular notch out of the aluminium backing sheet, where it forms a generous border at the connection end, so it'll fit over a small raised obstruction in the moulding on the GRP roof by the bathroom sky-light. But I think it'll go; and anyway it's got to, because calculations suggest I'll need all of those 130 Watts.

Which controller is the next step. We don't plan to be leaving this PVC parked for months at a time, so can forget charging the starter battery. Going for a single battery controller also gives me a much better selection of controllers and... the MPPT ones seem to be the ones to go for as it's claimed they somehow (through the dark arts of electronickery) get more power out of the panels. 
Still have to decide which one though... so am looking for advice.

Can the PV Controller be wired into the van's system directly to the on-board charger system control panel? 
If so, the PV Controller could sit side-by-side with the existing control panel which is conveniently located above the van's rear doors... potentially less than a metre of cable away from the rear PV panel.

HI Pilchard

Yes, all good.

Only comments would be:-
1 Go for a dual batt controller if you possibly can, the most likely battery to need charging is the vehicle one, the very one you are not, currently, planning to charge
2 Short wiring is good. Photonic do a good selection of extension wires etc, go for 4mm cross section, it'll be well over engineered, but this is not a job for speaker wire!
3 MPPT is good but not vital with 130w you'll be well placed, Froggie 1 our first Mh had only 100W this one, Froggie 2, has 150w, you are somewhere in between, neither have/had an MPPT controller
4 I have no knowledge of your van elec system, in my Duo, the outputs from the controller go direct to the batts via a 10A inline fuse at the +ve terminal of each battery

If in any doubt, do not hesitate to contact Photonic tech support, they are really good. Technical Support [technical@photonicuniverse.com]

Good luck
IanH

Hi IanH. Thanks for the feedback and advice.
Re your comments:-
1. Why do you think the vehicle/starter battery will the "most likely" to need charging? We'll drive it every day while on any holiday/trip, and at least every week when not.
2. 4mm does seem to be the standard, but thanks.
3. I feel that max charge from 130watts, both winter and summer in Scotland, might not always be achievable... so anything, for only just a slight extra cost, that is going to increase charge has to be a no-brainer.
4. Having not had the chance to fully familiarise myself with our only very recently purchased 2001 Symbol, I also have no knowledge of my van system. I have much to learn and much to check out. But the control panel has Auto-Sleeper on it, a Battery/Water guage in the centre, and Master, Battery and Pump, Lights switches on either size. The book decribes it as ZIG X7 BATTERY CHARGER & CEC BATTERY CHARGER AND POWER SUPPLY UNIT. The short route to the existing panel, if at all possible, would be so much better than yards of expensive cable snaking through cupboards etc to the battery location under the driver's seat, and that possible 5 metres of cable reducing electrical efficiency.

Hi pilchard, obviously you have ensured exact measurements to fit the solar panel in the space available. It may give a bit more assurance that all is correct by making a cardboard template that can be offered up to the roof to confirm all is ok. Also need to bear in mind any fixing parts are included in your calculations. Regards.

IanH will no doubt be along soon to comment, but some observations:

1. All other things being equal, it tends to be the vehicle battery that has constant drain on it (e.g. radio, alarm, tracker) so it's the one that tends to need topping up more than the leisure battery on a "typical" install. But if yours is driven weekly, you should not have an issue.

3. MPPT, if implemented properly, should gain you a few percent overall - though be aware that not all solar controllers that claim to be MPPT actually are. In particular it's not unknown for Chinese sellers to put whatever abbreviations on their adverts that they feel will sell - whether they are true or not. This forum's Meanchris recommended a controller recently from one of the well-regarded makers (Victron? I've forgotten already), so I would be inclined to go with one of those if it meets your needs. They are quite expensive (£80+, IIRC) but they are MPPT and dual-channel, which is relatively rare - though perhaps you don't want dual-channel.

4. For best performance you really (IMO) need to run a 4mm2 cable to the battery, not the control panel. Sure, it's further - but the battery is where the bulk of the power is going to be stored, so you need to get it there in the most effective way. When we put a 150W panel on the Trooper it would have been less distance to go to the panel, but we chose to go direct to the battery instead.

[We also put a cheap single-channel PWM-based controller right next to the battery, because with 150W available it wasn't considered critical to squeeze the very last out of it - if we need to we can upgrade at a later date.]

pilchard wrote:Hi IanH. Thanks for the feedback and advice.
Re your comments:-
1. Why do you think the vehicle/starter battery will the "most likely" to need charging? We'll drive it every day while on any holiday/trip, and at least every week when not.
2. 4mm does seem to be the standard, but thanks.
3. I feel that max charge from 130watts, both winter and summer in Scotland, might not always be achievable... so anything, for only just a slight extra cost, that is going to increase charge has to be a no-brainer.
4. Having not had the chance to fully familiarise myself with our only very recently purchased 2001 Symbol, I also have no knowledge of my van system. I have much to learn and much to check out. But the control panel has Auto-Sleeper on it, a Battery/Water guage in the centre, and Master, Battery and Pump, Lights switches on either size. The book decribes it as ZIG X7 BATTERY CHARGER & CEC BATTERY CHARGER AND POWER SUPPLY UNIT. The short route to the existing panel, if at all possible, would be so much better than yards of expensive cable snaking through cupboards etc to the battery location under the driver's seat, and that possible 5 metres of cable reducing electrical efficiency.

Mojo was right!

The starter battery is the only one which has to be connected at all times, in most cases, it runs alarms immobilisers, trackers, all manner of things these days so is constantly being discharged. it also runs the starter motor and without that you're going nowhere! 
The real reason for any solar system, for me, is to keep the batteries charged when the vehicle is NOT being used, mostly in winter when it is also cold, another of the many things batteries do not like. It is also the time you are least likely to use the vehicle.
130w is the max charge on midsummers day, at noon in a perfect cloud free sky and the sun is at 90 degrees to the panel. Any other time it is less, much less in winter, just, by way of Sod's Law, the very time you need/want it most. Photonic tell me they expect 20 to perhaps 30% of this in winter, the sun is low in the sky, far from 90 degrees to the panel, I reckon 30 degrees here in the south, so lets be generous and say 30% of 130w = 39w in the depth of winter, just enough, luckily to simply keep both batteries full and happy.

Not all doom and despair though, our 150w, more or less the same as you plan, means that we virtually never use an EHU, and use the truck most of the year. If you are using it every day, the alternator will do most/all of the charging you need, the solar is then a bonus. For the rest of the time your batteries are as happy as batteries can be!

Good Luck

pilchard wrote:Not an option I'd want to entertain crosgor. We'll need to leave the van parked up in public places while we go all day walkies. If we leave it outside, it'll get nicked: if we stash it in the van through the day, it'll defeat the object.

Sorry missed this post before and maybe too late now 
A friend of mine uses a 150w folding panel on his van, he has created a plug in system and puts the panel on the roof which he secures with chain and padlock, gives him a lot more power than he could have fitted due to like us roof space. He also parks his van undercover at home so he puts it on top of his car port to keep every thing charged when home 
Just another option.
David

We have a 2006 Symbol and also struggling for flat roof space. In our case there is no aerial so have two options, above the sliding door or above the back door. I haven't decided which panels to buy yet.

One choice is 2x 40w panels - the vision plus ones would definitely fit but a bit pricey and no choice of controller.

The alternative I'm looking at is the Photonic Universe ones, I could fit 2x 40W  or 1 40W + 1 50W. Downside here is I would have to fabricate a compact mounting that sits within the footprint of the panel. I was going for rigid ones not flexi.

My next step is making cardboard templates to check interference with the curved roof mouldings as space is going to be very tight (as you are finding too).

My main question is how vital is it to keep the panel entirely behind existing roof mouldings to minimise wind resistance? If it's ok to protrude into the wind, then how near to the roof edge dare I go -  my initial gut feeling is to leave a very good clearance so it doesn't snag bushes etc. In the end the curve of the roof edge is going to limit how near the edge it can be anyway but should the margin be greater than this?.

J, & J
I would be much more concerned about damage from trees etc than wind drag.
Although mine is flex and glued down, there is a case for under panel ventilation to keep panel temp lower. I would, all other things being equal, go for the lowest height and therefore air gap below the panel(s) and keeping away from your roof curvature.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
That said, mine is directly behind the fwd roof vent so is, to some extent, protected from the wind! It has survived prolonged 75 to 80Mph runs with no know effect. I fully appreciate your roof will be very different to mine btw.

The card templates is an excellent idea, make them as accurate as poss, a free way of being sure that your expensive purchase will fit before spending.

Good Luck

Oh for a roof like that, mine's all skylight. And I love that you've stored a spare tube of sikaflex on the roof, very handy

JandJ wrote:Oh for a roof like that, mine's all skylight. And I love that you've stored a spare tube of sikaflex on the roof, very handy

And the masking tape, can't have glue spreading everywhere!!

Going out for the day?[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I had no usable roof space on my Symbol, due to fitting a satellite dish.

I used a 20 watt panel sat on top of the blinds (the solid ends)  in the forward skylight. Worked to keep batteries topped up on the drive, which was the main requirement, but also when on site for a few days when we were out in the day.

Not sure you need to chase every last volt, unless you will be parked off grid for a few days, using TV etc for hours on end. On a previous van with a 100 watt panel, it topped up the battery by 10:00 even after a good evenings watching with the kids.

Always worth investing a little more to be able to charge the vehicle battery as well, middle of winter, holidays etc. could turn into 3,4,5 weeks between uses and then the van won't start. If nothing else, it balances the alarm etc. and ensures the van is always ready to go. It also ensures the battery is kept topped up, prolonging it's life. - An extra year of service from a battery would save more than the increase in cost.

Hi Chaps, sorry for late response. Have been on Granny Watch duties.

Paramedic... yes, I did the cardboard template thing.
Mojo... 1. So you are the only one that understands that fairly constant use will keep the starter battery topped up. No tracker... just a Toad               Alarm, weeny digital clock in cab, and the Radio/CD player. As the radio is currently wired through the ignition switch, which has no                 auxiliary mode so cannot be used without the ignition system on... I'm probably going to re-wire it into the leisure battery with an in-               line fuse.
           3. Thanks for advice re pesky Chinese... have my own poor experience/reservations too. Will look into Victron.
           4. 4mm to battery it is then. Bit of a pain, but the anal retentive in me will revel in making it ultra discrete.
           PWM/MPPT controller... still undecided.
IanH... Mojo understands my needs are based on my own particular intended use and therefore the needlessness of charge to starter battery.
           It seems you only use your van in summer/not cold weather, so that's why your 150watts (with twin controller) is plenty. We are                     looking foreward to Scottish winters.
Heanorboy... no, no, no. No folding panel for me. I'd rather have an extra leisure battery and get regular mains top-ups than have a great                   lump of a thing cluttering up a small van, and having to climb up on a roof with no access ladder, or roof-rails to chain it to. Then on                 return having to take it down so we can open roof vents or, god forbid, not drive off with it waffling about wrecking everything up top.
JandJ... your 2006 Symbol must be almost the same, if not identical, as mine up top... so can't you squeeze an 80watt panel onto the back                 offside of the roof? That's what I intend to do. You have the same concerns as me but maybe I'm more willing to push it to get the                   extra much needed watts.
IanH.... yes I've read about the potential ventillation issue, but it seems that this can be solved by just spot glueing it/them to the GRP roof                  while ensuring the leading ege has a good continuous solid bond.
JandJ... yes, I'm jealous... it's like a bloody aircraft carrier flight-deck.
Crosgor... please see my last reply to Heanorboy.
Matchlessman... please see all of my posts on this subject.

Thanks for all the help guys. I am grateful, even if some of my comments might seem a little dismissive... flippant even.
The controller choice still seems to be the unresolved one. More research needed. Oh... and of course, any available advice.
John

Pilchard

You should have enough info to INVENT solar now!

2 points.

1 If your starter battery is kept full by regular use, then it will be..............full. Therefore there is absolutely no disadvantage in having a dual battery controller, as all of the available charge will go to the leisure battery anyway. The ratio my is set to is 80/20, 80% going to the LB, but that is also 100% when the VB is full.

2 I glued my previous panel to the GRP roof of my EribaCar, prev Mh, all the way round and underneath as well, no issues at all. This one is now glued first to a sheet of 10mm dual wall polycarbonate the stuff used for conservatory roofs, then the sheet glued to the Mh roof. This gives a 10mm clearance from the roof and allows ventilation below the panel. It also stops the heat from the panel getting to the Mh roof

Good luck with your project. Having lived in Scotland for many years I do not recall EVER looking fwd to Scottish winters!

Pilchard

You should have enough info to INVENT solar now!

2 points.

1 If your starter battery is kept full by regular use, then it will be..............full. Therefore there is absolutely no disadvantage in having a dual battery controller, as all of the available charge will go to the leisure battery anyway. The ratio my is set to is 80/20, 80% going to the LB, but that is also 100% when the VB is full.

2 I glued my previous panel to the GRP roof of my EribaCar, prev Mh, all the way round and underneath as well, no issues at all. This one is now glued first to a sheet of 10mm dual wall polycarbonate the stuff used for conservatory roofs, then the sheet glued to the Mh roof. This gives a 10mm clearance from the roof and allows ventilation below the panel. It also stops the heat from the panel getting to the Mh roof

Good luck with your project. Having lived in Scotland for many years I do not recall EVER looking fwd to Scottish winters!

pilchard wrote:JandJ... your 2006 Symbol must be almost the same, if not identical, as mine up top... so can't you squeeze an 80watt panel onto the back offside of the roof? That's what I intend to do. You have the same concerns as me but maybe I'm more willing to push it to get the extra much needed watts.

I was playing safe, and because we have no TV aerial I know I can get 2 x 40W.  But now you've thrown me into a tizzy - perhaps I could do 2x 60W after all  . I'm not sure the 80W will fit but the only way to check is to start chopping cardboard.....

BTW I had decided on rigid panels. Gluing semi-flexibles on directly would be nice low profile but headache if they need replacing in a few years - perhaps the answer might be to glue the next on directly on top?  Rigid ones of course get some ventilation underneath.

Joe

Take a look at this mounting for flexible panel
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Just to give a better solution using a solo solar panel  controller you can fit an additional "battery master" from Van Bitz  .. about £70 . Easy to wire in and means 100% solar charge to leisure battery but when the vehicle battery voltage drops by a margin below the leisure battery then the latter charges the vehicle battery. Any reduction to leisure being topped up by solar panels. I have this set up on 2014 Symbol and it works well.
Martin

Further info


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Thanks for the links to the battery master and mounts.

Pilchard: as it's a bit milder today I've got the ladder out and re-measured. Yes it does look like I could get 2x 60W with only a tiny projection beyond the streamlining of the existing skylights. The 80W is probably feasible but a bit close to the edge for my liking - I have the luxury of a second panel so don't need to push the edges, but sounds like you are a bit more restricted for choice.

marbarsymbol... looks like the kind of thing you'd add to augment an existing single battery controller. But I'm doing the whole thing from scratchso, If I needed to charge the van battery too, then I'd just get a dual battery controller for only a few quid more than the single version. Good for those that want to upgrade though.
I did read though... don't ask me where... a guy said he'd installed a PV system and found it was charging his van battery too. Didn't say he had a dual charger. Maybe he did and he didn't know.

JandJ... if I could find 60w panels in flexis, then I might forgo the agro and make do with 120w instead of 130.