INTERMITTENT STALLING

by spherebear Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:31 pm

Dear all.
Have just found this forum and read a couple threads that suggest to me i might have finally found a place that could help solve a long running problem....or diagnose at least.
Our Autosleeper, Harmony ( 1999 Peugeot Boxer- PETROL ) has had a long term intermittent stalling problem.
We've tried a lot of things, spent a lot of money, visited a lot of garages. Sadly we have been stung by a couple garages too so i'm not sure what work was ever really genuinely carried out.

I stress it is INTERMITTENT. Some days it work like a dream, other days she stalls when slowing down at junctions, braking with foot on clutch. Low revs. Never stalls at speed.
However....I could start her up now and if she didn't stall first time and was idling fine she would tick over all day long. Why would the movement of the van exacerbate the problem?

When people ask if the engine is hot or cold i'm not sure how to answer. How long does it take for an engine to be hot? Stalling can happen anytime but lets say warm-hot.

The problem started after we had to put in a reconditioned gear box and new clutch. This could be coincidental but my thinking is something was damaged or not put back right during this repair?

There doesn't appear to be a diagnostic computer (error code reader) to plug in to unless i'm looking in the wrong places. This obviously might have made diagnosis much easier.
Could it be hidden somewhere less obvious?

Latest theories ( not provided by any mechanics.I've been astonished by how little help or ideas have been forthcoming from garages to date ) are CAM ANGLE SENSOR (Crank/Cam shaft?) or
MULTI FUNCTION RELAY prob.
To complicate all of these problems above...i don't know anything about engines so this is all well over my head and technical info advice given can be overwhelming confused3

As far as i know the earth has recently been checked, the battery and terminals are sound, (part of) the coil was changed. Plugs were checked. Idle speed altered
I repeat though....the mechanics that said they did some of this work clearly hadn't so i'm not convinced about the coil, idle speed or plugs either.
I haven't checked for air leaks, cracks etc. Not really sure where to look.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read through this epic. I really hope there's some help out there and we can enjoy having a camper van again rather than the shame of seeing it sitting idle.
Appreciate that this being an intermittent problem complicates matters massively.
Maybe someone knows of an 'old school' mechanic with integrity specialising in Peugeots in Scotland's Central Belt?

Any ideas?? Bartfarst? Boxerman?? Anyone???
All the best for now.
smile!

by Paulmold Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:35 pm

Welcome Rachel. Here is a link to the thread I referred to on that other forum..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by spherebear Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:39 pm

Hi Paulmold. Thanks so much for giving Rachel the 'heads up'.
I'm her partner.
Have read that thread and another similar to it.
I think you've pointed us towards a great site/forum and we're hopeful of finding a solution now after 2 years of
extreme frustration up!

by Paulmold Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:48 pm

Some very knowledgeable members here so I'm sure help will be forthcoming. Don't forget to say hello in the intro section.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by mikethebike Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:41 pm

spherebear wrote:Dear all.
Have just found this forum and read a couple threads that suggest to me i might have finally found a place that could help solve a long running problem....or diagnose at least.
Our Autosleeper, Harmony ( 1999 Peugeot Boxer- PETROL ) has had a long term intermittent stalling problem.
We've tried a lot of things, spent a lot of money, visited a lot of garages. Sadly we have been stung by a couple garages too so i'm not sure what work was ever really genuinely carried out.

I stress it is INTERMITTENT. Some days it work like a dream, other days she stalls when slowing down at junctions, braking with foot on clutch. Low revs. Never stalls at speed.
However....I could start her up now and if she didn't stall first time and was idling fine she would tick over all day long. Why would the movement of the van exacerbate the problem?

When people ask if the engine is hot or cold i'm not sure how to answer. How long does it take for an engine to be hot? Stalling can happen anytime but lets say warm-hot.

The problem started after we had to put in a reconditioned gear box and new clutch. This could be coincidental but my thinking is something was damaged or not put back right during this repair?

There doesn't appear to be a diagnostic computer (error code reader) to plug in to unless i'm looking in the wrong places. This obviously might have made diagnosis much easier.
Could it be hidden somewhere less obvious?

Latest theories ( not provided by any mechanics.I've been astonished by how little help or ideas have been forthcoming from garages to date ) are CAM ANGLE SENSOR (Crank/Cam shaft?) or
MULTI FUNCTION RELAY prob.
To complicate all of these problems above...i don't know anything about engines so this is all well over my head and technical info advice given can be overwhelming

As far as i know the earth has recently been checked, the battery and terminals are sound, (part of) the coil was changed. Plugs were checked. Idle speed altered
I repeat though....the mechanics that said they did some of this work clearly hadn't so i'm not convinced about the coil, idle speed or plugs either.
I haven't checked for air leaks, cracks etc. Not really sure where to look.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read through this epic. I really hope there's some help out there and we can enjoy having a camper van again rather than the shame of seeing it sitting idle.
Appreciate that this being an intermittent problem complicates matters massively.
Maybe someone knows of an 'old school' mechanic with integrity specialising in Peugeots in Scotland's Central Belt?

Any ideas?? Bartfarst? Boxerman?? Anyone???
All the best for now.

I will bump this up for attention. Boxerman has a Symphony its identical on the engine side,i think.

I will get my brain going and think of something.

Regards
Micky

by mikethebike Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:51 pm

A few pointers to go on with.
These engines can suffer from water going over all the electrics from the windscreen.
Remove plug caps and check for water or corrosion around plugs.
I suggest changing plug leads unless this has just been done. Its a weak point with age and a cheap item to change.
I am sure a dose of WD 40 around this area would not go amiss as well.
Is the problem more noticeable in the rain?

regards

Micky

by burlingtonboaby Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:07 pm

Don't know the fuel feed system on your van, however one of my old buckets had a perforated diaphragm in the fuel pump and gave me similar problems.
Maybe going to far back and your fuel injected?
Boaby

by boxerman Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:31 pm

I have not contributed to this thread because I cannot think of anything to say which has not been discussed previously in earlier threads where other people have had this problem.
I see no point in repeating exactly the same information on different threads and cluttering the board up.

@ Spherebear - Welcome to the forum BTW

Frank

by spherebear Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:13 pm

Thank you so much for the kind feedback.

Thank you Micky. I haven't noticed any definite worse behaviour in the wet, but it's pretty much always wet up here so hard to tell winkin!

I'll try and see if the plugs look like they're wet.
I asked one garage to change the ignition coil recently but i really don't know if they did or not so coil and plugs etc haven't
been reliably ruled out of the picture.

Thank you Boaby.
I'm not sure about fuel injection etc but will bear the fuel pump in mind after trying to get to grips with the electrics.
I was told that if it was a fuel pump it would stall all the time rather than one day here, one day there.

Thank you Frank.
I have read the thread relating to a stalling Symphony. I didn't appreciate the Symphony and Harmony are similar ( or
identical engines ). Your theory was possibly a dodgy 'idle stepper motor' which i've noted and i'll look in to.
Do you have a link at all to where i could buy that exact part for a 1999 Petrol Boxer or should i leave that to a mechanic to source?
Bartfarst also said he had a problem with his crankshaft speed sensor in that thread and i was wondering about a cam angle sensor.

It would also be great to know a definitive answer to if there is a diagnostic port of any type on this age/style of van??

Ideally i'd find a peugeot specialist in the central belt Scotland who i could take the van to with all of this info.
Does anybody know of a good peugeot specialist up here?

Thanks again y'all.

by burlingtonboaby Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:20 pm

My fuel pump problem was an intermittent shortage of fuel when trying to accelerate, the engine would stall, then recover.
I stripped the pump down to reveal a perferated diaphragm, I had to replace the mechanical fuel pump and solved the problem , I think a FIAT fuel pump at the time was under £12.
Hair line cracks in the coil and rota cap could cause a problem ?.
Boaby

by Spospe Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:27 pm

Could be water in the fuel. I have had this problem in the past and it was caused by a perforated fuel filler pipe from the fuel cap to the tank. What happened was that water got into the tank and blobs of it made their way to the carburettor float bowl. This caused a stall / stutter at slow speed, especially when changing direction.

If your vehicle has a carburettor and is not fuel injected, I suggest checking for water in the petrol.

Just a guess, as I do not know what sort of fueling system you have, but water does sound a possibility to me.

by boxerman Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:29 pm

spherebear wrote:
Thank you Frank.
I have read the thread relating to a stalling Symphony. I didn't appreciate the Symphony and Harmony are similar ( or
identical engines ). Your theory was possibly a dodgy 'idle stepper motor' which i've noted and i'll look in to.
Do you have a link at all to where i could buy that exact part for a 1999 Petrol Boxer or should i leave that to a mechanic to source?

Same engine - XU10J2 - Injection / ignition system Magneti Marelli 8P.
Idle stepper motor [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
A mechanic would probably order a genuine Peugeot part which would cost a lot more.

Bartfarst also said he had a problem with his crankshaft speed sensor in that thread and i was wondering about a cam angle sensor.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no cam angle sensor, just the crank angle sensor which is below the coil pack.

It would also be great to know a definitive answer to if there is a diagnostic port of any type on this age/style of van??

On my van there is just the rudimentary flash codes. I suspect that yours will be the same.
Hanging down from the ECU [behind the air filter] is a wire dangling down with a green spade terminal on the end.Connect a flash code reader to this to read the flash codes. I have a DVD with the flash codes but it doesn't run well on anything later than XP [although it seems OK under wine on Linux Mint up!

]
The trouble with fault codes is that they are very ambiguous, a high/low/null reading from a sensor could mean lots of things, a broken connection, faulty sensor, an air or vacuum leak or a host of other things.

HTH
Frank

by spherebear Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:49 pm

Never stalls when accelerating Boaby. Never stalls if foot is on the gas.
Only at very low revs e.g braking coming up to junctions etc.
Luckily it always starts straight away when i start the ignition but can still be hairy
stalling and losing power steering censored!

Think i really need a good mechanic to check all of this including plugs, coil,
crankshafts and idle stepper motors. Failing all that i guess fuel will be next on the list.
Cheers mun.
Bj

*** sorry...messages came through as i was typing this.
Thanks again Frank. This sounds like excellent advice. I use a mac if that helps. I've never seen Linux in action.

Thank you Spospe. I actually had water in the fuel problem a few years ago. This was successfully fixed. It was stalling ALL the time though with the water in fuel.
Our van is running fine for days but then suddenly stalls for a while and is then fine again for an hour/day/week and then misbehaves again.

by AndyLouch Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:52 pm

Hi, Some years ago I had a similar problem with a 2.0L petrol engine on an Opel Ascona. After several spells in the garage and much head scratching, it was eventually traced to the automatic choke sticking. IIRC there was a hole in a diaphragm in the choke system which upset the air/fuel mixture and prevented the engine from idling normally once it had warmed up. Not sure if this is relevant to your engine?
Good luck, Andy

by mikethebike Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:08 pm

spherebear wrote:Never stalls when accelerating Boaby. Never stalls if foot is on the gas.
Only at very low revs e.g braking coming up to junctions etc.
Luckily it always starts straight away when i start the ignition but can still be hairy
stalling and losing power steering

Think i really need a good mechanic to check all of this including plugs, coil,
crankshafts and idle stepper motors. Failing all that i guess fuel will be next on the list.
Cheers mun.
Bj

*** sorry...messages came through as i was typing this.
Thanks again Frank. This sounds like excellent advice. I use a mac if that helps. I've never seen Linux in action.

Thank you Spospe. I actually had water in the fuel problem a few years ago. This was successfully fixed. It was stalling ALL the time though with the water in fuel.
Our van is running fine for days but then suddenly stalls for a while and is then fine again for an hour/day/week and then misbehaves again.

thinking back again 5 years, its very similar symptoms to my Symphony.
I found changing the plug leads made the most improvement or was the final fix.I firmly believe this is electrical and related to coil,leads plugs area poor insulation breakdown.
Fortunately this is one of the cheapest and easiest areas to check.
Remember this model had the poor design,that allowed water to go all over the engine.
Many owners know this.
regards

Micky

by boxerman Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:29 pm

spherebear wrote:N
Thanks again Frank. This sounds like excellent advice. I use a mac if that helps. I've never seen Linux in action.

'Fraid its a windoze thing.
Found this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] which might [but probably might not] help.
It lists the fault codes but like I said, fault codes are ambiguous.

Frank

by spherebear Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:42 pm

ThanX Frank. Good to know anyway. I've got the link now thank you.
The mechanics i've used have all been unable to find a port anyway. I wont stress about finding one so much from now.

Micky...i'll certainly get all the plugs, leads, coil checked again.
The mechanics said they had but clearly they hadn't as the battery they also 'checked'
was barely still connected. Both terminals were extremely loose and lots of corrosion etc.

Thanks Andy. I don't know about automatic chokes etc but i've added this possibility to the
list.
Cheers.
Bj

by boxerman Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:45 pm

spherebear wrote:
Thanks Andy. I don't know about automatic chokes etc but i've added this possibility to the list.

Cross it off - there isn't one smile!

Frank

by spherebear Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:48 pm

by chrisvesey Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:00 pm

Hi,
I had a similar fault on my van and eventually traced it to the following...there is a valve which ventilates the fuel tank, this is located above the radiator on the left hand side, connected to the inlet manifold by a half inch rubber hose and has electrical connections. It is open when the engine is running normally and closes when on tickover. If it sticks open it causes a weak mixture and stalling. Testing is easy, pull the hose off the valve and plug it, if engine is ok you've cracked it. Do not be confused with an adjacent valve which has smaller narrow bore pipes,
Chris

by spherebear Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:07 pm

Will deffers try this Chris.
Sounds like even I might be able to manage this up!

by boxerman Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:27 pm

I found this thread on another forum:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
which may be of help to anyone you ask to look at your van. But bear in mind that it is a very old post and although the engine and injection system are the same make & type, they are in a car not a van, so the components are in different places. Also, the thread ends without the OP sating if the problem was sorted.
'Cyril' is apparently a professional technician and seems to know his onions.
I have the whole topic downloaded to a .pdf file which I could email to you if you wish?

Frank

by spherebear Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:06 pm

That would be great thanks Frank.
I hope Cyril was okay.
I wish he was in Edinburgh! ;)
BJ

by spherebear Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:11 pm

Canny post you a PM until i've been a member for 7 days Frank.
Whistle1

Bj

by boxerman Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:21 pm

Send an email to the address in my profile and I'll have your address to send it to.

Frank

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