Winter charging

Wozzon wrote:Hello, I haven’t been on the forum for a while so I'd like to take this opportunity to wish everyone reading this a 'Happy New Year'.
Can anyone please confirm the following: if I connect my Symbol ES to the mains with the 12v control panel switched off will the inbuilt battery charger also charge the vehicle battery?

Hi, Having recently come out to a flat starter battery on my 2011 dorset I did some circuit testing.
on mains hookup, switch on 12V and select leisure, this charges leisure battery.
select vehicle and this charges starter battery, the 12V circuit must be left on.
It has taken me 18 months to realise this but I now have 2 fully charged batteries.
Good luck and a happy new year.

Robbie wrote:

-mojo- wrote:

inspiredron wrote:

Robbie wrote:Our Cotswold has a sargent unit for the electrics, the control panel does not have to be powered up. There however is a red rocker switch on the main sargent unit which can be toggled to either charge or not chrage the batteries.

My Lancashire also has the Sargent charger and control panel. I agree with the above as far as it goes BUT- within the control panel you can choose which battery to use/charge, leisure or vehicle. You cannot charge both.

I'm led to believe that while this is true of the mains charger on the current Sargent (type 328) controller, the built-in solar controller distributes solar charging across both batteries automatically, though it is not as sophisticated as Modelman's dedicated solar controller, in that it is demand-based so you cannot choose a split ratio that it must use.

Interesting this as you learn something new every day thanks guys I had previously though that the control box charged the leisure batteries and then the main battery if it needed some. I see this is not the case and that you have to select the vehicle battery on the control panel to get the relay in the unit to kick over onto the other battery and hence charge it.
I could be wrong here but if the relay basically the last component before the output to the batteries the solar panel will also only charge which ever battery the relay is selected to. That probably an AS or Sargent question.
We normally have our LCD control panel powered of when not in the van but this needs to be kept powered up if wanting to charge the vehicle battery, once its powered off the relay latches back to select the leisure batteries. lol noticed that when i went out to check the operation of ours this morning and turned it off

AH! I was not sure about that. I had played with the Sargent a few weeks ago but did not twig that it had to be left on to charge the vehicle battery. I will look and if necessary contact Sargent - they are quite helpful - or were when I asked about the jumpers in the box behind the driver's seat that control the outside light and the step operation when the van is locked and unlocked.

Had another look at the charging system on my Symbol today, started with the instruction manual (always a good place to start, not that I always do)! Anyway, in the manual it stated that the charger will charge the vehicle battery as well as the habitation battery. The way to do this according to the operating instructions for the MES control unit is, when the control panel has been put into charge habitation mode, press the center button on the control panel. The back light will change from green to red and charge vehicle will come up on screen. When I did this the battery charger makes some noises and then I guess the vehicle battery is being charged. I started the vehicle today after charging vehicle battery from on board charger and after five weeks of standing idle there was no hesitation in battery power whatsoever. In the past when I have started after five weeks the battery has sounded slightly laboured, although the engine starts fairly quickly.

Just seen Grumpys post after writing the above. Its taken me 14 months to learn this, but never mind we both know now!

Robbie wrote:

-mojo- wrote:

inspiredron wrote:

Robbie wrote:Our Cotswold has a sargent unit for the electrics, the control panel does not have to be powered up. There however is a red rocker switch on the main sargent unit which can be toggled to either charge or not chrage the batteries.

My Lancashire also has the Sargent charger and control panel. I agree with the above as far as it goes BUT- within the control panel you can choose which battery to use/charge, leisure or vehicle. You cannot charge both.

I'm led to believe that while this is true of the mains charger on the current Sargent (type 328) controller, the built-in solar controller distributes solar charging across both batteries automatically, though it is not as sophisticated as Modelman's dedicated solar controller, in that it is demand-based so you cannot choose a split ratio that it must use.

Interesting this as you learn something new every day thanks guys I had previously though that the control box charged the leisure batteries and then the main battery if it needed some. I see this is not the case and that you have to select the vehicle battery on the control panel to get the relay in the unit to kick over onto the other battery and hence charge it.
I could be wrong here but if the relay basically the last component before the output to the batteries the solar panel will also only charge which ever battery the relay is selected to. That probably an AS or Sargent question.
We normally have our LCD control panel powered of when not in the van but this needs to be kept powered up if wanting to charge the vehicle battery, once its powered off the relay latches back to select the leisure batteries. lol noticed that when i went out to check the operation of ours this morning and turned it off

It surprises me a bit about the solar charging both batteries, irrespective of which battery is selected for mains charging. I was basing this purely on what it says in the Sargent 328 User Manual, which ~appears~ completely unequivocal on the subject (but may nevertheless be unequivocally wrong!):

"The EC328PSU incorporates a built-in dual channel Solar Regulator that allows the direct connection
of a 20 to 120W solar panel without the need for additional components. The dual regulator charges
both the vehicle and leisure batteries simultaneously and connects to the PSU via a dedicated
connector on the base of the unit."

The Solar does have its own dedicated connector on the base of the unit, I seen that the other day. It may well charge both batteries at once as well, I just wondered how it does that if you have to select either vehicle battery or leisure battery in the control panel to get a particular one to charge on mains.
All good interesting stuff, our vehicle and leisure batteries are both healthy after today lol

Hi agai folks,
Winnie is quite old 2000 so I don't have this facility, do I?

Best regards Mike

Flying High wrote:Winnie is quite old 2000 so I don't have this facility, do I?

What, integrated solar controller? No, don't think so - only came in with the EC328 AFAIK. But stand-alone controllers aren't too expensive anyway.

Robbie wrote:The Solar does have its own dedicated connector on the base of the unit, I seen that the other day. It may well charge both batteries at once as well, I just wondered how it does that if you have to select either vehicle battery or leisure battery in the control panel to get a particular one to charge on mains.

The good thing is that - if the manual is correct - it means that if you are on EHU and have the mains charger on one battery, the solar panel will almost certainly be putting all of its output into the other battery, because that one will have a much lower terminal voltage and so will be seen as having most "demand".

But then again, if the manual is incorrect I would not be massively surprised...

-mojo- wrote:

Robbie wrote:The Solar does have its own dedicated connector on the base of the unit, I seen that the other day. It may well charge both batteries at once as well, I just wondered how it does that if you have to select either vehicle battery or leisure battery in the control panel to get a particular one to charge on mains.

The good thing is that - if the manual is correct - it means that if you are on EHU and have the mains charger on one battery, the solar panel will almost certainly be putting all of its output into the other battery, because that one will have a much lower terminal voltage and so will be seen as having most "demand".

But then again, if the manual is incorrect I would not be massively surprised...

One thing I have noticed with the sargent unit is that there is no way to see if the solar panel is actually working or how many amps it is putting into the batteries

-mojo- wrote:

Flying High wrote:Winnie is quite old 2000 so I don't have this facility, do I?

What, integrated solar controller? No, don't think so - only came in with the EC328 AFAIK. But stand-alone controllers aren't too expensive anyway.

That's ok then, spent too much on Winnie anyway and I have a secondary backup battery.

Best regards, Mike

A-S manuals, eh?
I've been in contact with A-S today about what the manual says about battery charging for our 2007 Topaz: it tells me that charging of both batteries by the Inter-Power charger is "fully automatic once (the unit is) switched on". No indication of how/where to switch it on: it just tells you to connect mains cable, switch on RCD and MCB and then "switch on the Inter-Power".

When I sent my first e-mail to them yesterday I had not located the charger (I later found it under a cover under the bench seat), this morning A-S told me it was located in the shower compartment, either under the wardrobe or "under the base panel in the small locker opposite" (behind the toilet?).

They said that I had to switch the charger on, using the switch on the unit, (there isn't one... and lifting the bench seat and unscrewing the cover each time would not really be sensible design feature, would it!) they I said I had to chose between charging the Habitation or vehicle battery, using the 3-position rocker switch on the overhead control unit, adding "Im afraid that I don’t know the reasons that the manual refers to “automatic charging as this is clearly not the case". So I still don't really know what I have to do to keep both batteries topped up when I plug in.

The only previous time I contacted A-S was during my search for the water pump- they told me it had been fitted in a number of places on the 2007 Topaz! There was no clue to the location in the hand-book but it gave the impression that it was easy to service. Eventually I found it behind the wash-room wall, not exactly handy for cleaning/removing the filter and pipes for Winterising!

A-S ownership is going to be something of a voyage of technical discovery, I think!

Cheers,
Pete.

Robbie wrote:

-mojo- wrote:

Robbie wrote:The Solar does have its own dedicated connector on the base of the unit, I seen that the other day. It may well charge both batteries at once as well, I just wondered how it does that if you have to select either vehicle battery or leisure battery in the control panel to get a particular one to charge on mains.

The good thing is that - if the manual is correct - it means that if you are on EHU and have the mains charger on one battery, the solar panel will almost certainly be putting all of its output into the other battery, because that one will have a much lower terminal voltage and so will be seen as having most "demand".

But then again, if the manual is incorrect I would not be massively surprised...

One thing I have noticed with the sargent unit is that there is no way to see if the solar panel is actually working or how many amps it is putting into the batteries

I checked the on line Sargent manual (available at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ) and then spoke to the technical guy at Sargent with specific reference to the EC328. He tells me (without any hesitation but after asking me the make of van):

1: To charge the vehicle battery the control unit MUST BE ON - ie van 12V electrics will be powered up. If the control unit is switched off then the charger defaults back to charging the leisure battery.

2: A solar panel will split its output equally between the two batteries irrespective of whether one is being charged from the mains! The solar panel will only charge the batteries if the CONTROL UNIT IS SWITCHED ON!

I find both these answers very disappointing because I don't regard it as good practice to leave van electrics on while the van is laid up. Intuitively it seems to contradict the automatic switching off of habitation electrics when the engine is started.

I will use an independent charger to keep the vehicle battery in good condition. Luckily LIDL have their intelligent CTEK type chargers at present at £13.99.

inspiredron wrote:
I checked the on line Sargent manual (available at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ) and then spoke to the technical guy at Sargent with specific reference to the EC328. He tells me (without any hesitation but after asking me the make of van):

1: To charge the vehicle battery the control unit MUST BE ON - ie van 12V electrics will be powered up. If the control unit is switched off then the charger defaults back to charging the leisure battery.

2: A solar panel will split its output equally between the two batteries irrespective of whether one is being charged from the mains! The solar panel will only charge the batteries if the CONTROL UNIT IS SWITCHED ON!

I find both these answers very disappointing because I don't regard it as good practice to leave van electrics on while the van is laid up. Intuitively it seems to contradict the automatic switching off of habitation electrics when the engine is started.

I will use an independent charger to keep the vehicle battery in good condition. Luckily LIDL have their intelligent CTEK type chargers at present at £13.99.

Thankyou for getting in contact with sergant, I am astounded that the solar panel will only charge when the control panel is powered up thats just bad design IMHO as thats when most of us want solar to keep the batteries topped up.
I had thought about getting a seperate solar controller as it will show the charging rate etc but said to myself we dont really need it, with this new information I think I will have to re evaluate the situation. Then its trying to figure out what is the best type of regulator to get.

inspiredron wrote:
2: A solar panel will split its output equally between the two batteries irrespective of whether one is being charged from the mains!

Thanks for contacting Sargent on this, and relaying back the responses.

I have to say though that I have no confidence in their reply on this. When one battery is charging it will have a terminal voltage of perhaps 14V, while the other (non-charging) one will be at maybe 12.5V. Any normal design of split load charger will put more current into the battery with the lower voltage. You would have to create a very complex design to force it to split its output equally in those circumstances, and it would be pointless to create such a complex piece of circuitry.

So I hear what Sargent say... but I don't believe it.

I think it only charges the leisure battery. I remove both batteries during winter and give them a periodic trickle charge. I'm told this prolongs the life of the battery.

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This topic seems to be running in two places. PLease see comment on my experience via the link above.

Peter

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And then there were three.

Pete Taylor wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And then there were three.

Oh dear! Can the moderators please look to see which thread should continue and close the others but retaining links to the continuing thread?

inspiredron wrote:

Pete Taylor wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And then there were three.

Oh dear! Can the moderators please look to see which thread should continue and close the others but retaining links to the continuing thread?

Hello Ron

Will take a look later when I have more time and then decide what to do.

Regards

Hi Ron. Pete And Peter.

These treads started off marginally different. With a slightly different question being asked. However as this seems to be a seasonal subject the threads would have appeared to have merged into one. The problem would have been how to delete or stop the individual threads and if it would seem to be fair as to which one to stop. Threads do often repeat themselves on any forum as you have noticed. But not allways at the same time. All threads have a limited life span so to speak then crop up again at a later date when new people join the forum and ask the question again. By then with luck we will have a new bunch of experts to give their replies.

Hope this explains why I did not intervene with these threads.
Cheers. Whisky.

I braved the snow today and checked the charging. Cannot comment on solar but it is definite that panel must be switched on for vehicle battery to be charged. I switched panel on, vehicle battery was at 12.0v good. When I switched to vehicle battery that went to around 14v. As soon as I switched control unit off that voltage fell to around 12v and leisure battery went up to 14v.
I took the cover off the battery compartment and there is just about enough space for a Lidl charger - but it's tight. Also it is not easy to get mains to there. It is so tucked away that you would not want to connect and disconnect.

matchlessman wrote:Wozzon,
Our Symbol ES only charges the leisure battery on EHU. I've played with the buttons on the control panel, but still no joy for the vehicle battery. The easy way to test is to put a voltmeter on the battery then switch on the hook up and see if the voltage rises. No such luck on mine. I've just invested in a 'battery to battery' charger so that the leaisure battery will keep the vehicle battery topped up. The leisure battery will be topped up by the hook up, or when parked on the drive a small solar panel.

Upadate; My van (61 plate Symbol ES) does now charge the vehicle battery on hook up if the control panel is switched over.. Fuse had gone.... Caused by the 'Technician' in the dealer who installed the Solar Panel Regulator wiring it wrongly. Doh!!

The battery to battery charger is working well though and everything is now wired how it should be.

Does anyone know how this is likely to be set up on a 1997 Duetto. I know the lesure battery is charged on hook up, there is a light which comes on to indicate this - but not sure about the vehicle battery?
Thanks
Jonny

Have a look at this thread started today, I'm sure you will see the answer..

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