Used High Top Diesel Engine Recommendation

We're (a trifle wistfully) planning to upgrade our 1986 VW Autohomes Komet to a £15k max price Symbol /Symphony / Duetto / Trident or similar, though my dear wife would prefer a toilet compartment to a porta potti! Want diesel for economy (although will do under 5000 miles a year) , but so many engine sizes and varieties to choose from. For example does a 1.9TD have enough power (hopefully more than the Komet 1.9 petrol waterboxer) or go for 2.4 / 2.5? Pre 2000 non turbo diesels to be avoided or not? Anyone has thoughts. experience, recommendations, economy figures etc please let me know - or if you know of a suitable Autosleeper privately for sale. Have also put this in High Top Van section of forum section as unsure which is most relevant!

I can only really comment on the Transit-based conversions (such as the Duetto, or the shorter Flair, which I have). The turbo that was added in around '95 makes a significant difference to both power and economy. I recorded an average of 34mpg on a 2 week trip earlier this year, though this was mainly motorway/fast A road. On slower roads this goes down to around 30-32mpg. Power from the 2.5TDi is definitely adequate (for me, at least) with a high-top.

I'm not sure if £15k will get you a decent Mk6 Transit based diesel model, but if so, some had common rail injection from around 2002, which should mean more mpg - though I'm not sure how much more.

I'd certainly recommend the 2.0HDi in a Boxer over the 1.9TD. The power band is much wider with this engine and we find it sufficiently powerful whilst it still returns mid-30s mpg when touring gently.

Bartfarst

Hi there
My experience tells me the VW 2.5TDI engine leaves all the other engines in second place, in terms of economy, design and power. However remember that panel vans do offer different facilities e.g. Symbols / Duettos have shower / toilet rooms and proper cooker with ovens, whilst Tridents / Troopers have porta pottis and 2 burner hobs. Admittedly the Topaz has a shower / toilet room, but still has basis cooking facilities. If you're moving on from a Komet then you will have been use to the more basis facilities and if you are not looking for more creature comforts, then you will be more than happy with the VW 2.5TDI based vehicles.
Many years ago I had a 2.1 injection Komet (what a van )

John

hoopman wrote:the VW 2.5TDI engine leaves all the other engines in second place, in terms of economy, design and power.

It may be a more sophisticated design (being a 5-cylinder) but, to be pedantic, it's neither more powerful nor more economical than the equivalent 180PS bi-turbo in the current range of 2 litre diesels in the Transporter.

However, consensus among drivers seems to be that they are nicer to drive, and also probably significantly less stressed than a 2 litre diesel producing 180BHP and 400Nm...

Mojo
Agree, but I don't think you will get one of those for shirelets' max budget of 15K
John

hoopman wrote:Mojo
Agree, but I don't think you will get one of those for shirelets' max budget of 15K
John

Ah yes - good point!

shirelets wrote:We're (a trifle wistfully) planning to upgrade our 1986 VW Autohomes Komet to a £15k max price Symbol /Symphony / Duetto / Trident or similar, though my dear wife would prefer a toilet compartment to a porta potti! Want diesel for economy (although will do under 5000 miles a year) , but so many engine sizes and varieties to choose from. Pre 2000 non turbo diesels to be avoided or not? Anyone has thoughts. experience, recommendations, economy figures etc please let me know - or if you know of a suitable Autosleeper privately for sale. Have also put this in High Top Van section of forum section as unsure which is most relevant!

A number of comments -
first you do less than 5k a year. A Diesel engine is never efficient until it is hot - about 9 miles running.
second the relative price of petrol and diesel in the UK almost certainly negates any saving on diesel fuel economy.
Third Most vehicles made after 2000 have complex engine management systems - if you open the bonnet with a screwdriver in your hand the engine will have a nervous breakdown and go into limp mode. On some you cannot even do a simple oil and filter change without a expensive software on your laptop to tell the vehicle the work has been done. - So only well equipped and expensive garages can do the work.
Jon

Thanks everyone for your comments. Am starting to build up a bit of a picture and slowly concluding (being a bit of a spanner monkey e.g. maybe one of few to DIY rebuild a T25 1.9DG with corroded head studs) that diesels pre 2000 without complex engine management may be the way to go, plus engine size around 2.5. By the way, we've porta potted for 12 years with the Komet (lots of wild camping in Scotland) and I would happily continue to do so, but my good lady really would prefer a civilised & enclosed albeit cramped toilet - hence Symbol etc rather than Trident.

Shirelets
Compromise could be a VW Topaz, has toliet/bathroom area and you may be able to pick up a 97 /98 model for around £15K. From an engine management point of view there's nothing to worry about with the 5 cyclinder 2.5TDI Engine.
John

kernow jon wrote:Third Most vehicles made after 2000 have complex engine management systems - if you open the bonnet with a screwdriver in your hand the engine will have a nervous breakdown and go into limp mode. On some you cannot even do a simple oil and filter change without a expensive software on your laptop to tell the vehicle the work has been done. - So only well equipped and expensive garages can do the work.
Jon

I don't agree Jon. In many cases your laptop, essential for debugging, makes the whole process much easier. Take the case of VAGCOM or VCSLite for use on VW engines: a lead on eBay is £10 and the basic software is free. Once you get your head around it, this becomes an extremely powerful tool for sussing-out what's up and cutting through the BS that garages give you while they attempt repair by exchange and rob your wallet simulaneously.

ECUs and fancy electronics are here to stay I'm afraid: emssions legislation and the green lobby have made sure of that. In my view the sooner we learn to use all this stuff to our advantage the better. If garages can get their head around it then so can the savvy amateur!

Bartfarst

Bartfarst wrote:I don't agree Jon. In many cases your laptop, essential for debugging, makes the whole process much easier. Take the case of VAGCOM or VCSLite for use on VW engines: a lead on eBay is £10 and the basic software is free. Once you get your head around it, this becomes an extremely powerful tool for sussing-out what's up and cutting through the BS that garages give you while they attempt repair by exchange and rob your wallet simulaneously.

ECUs and fancy electronics are here to stay I'm afraid: emssions legislation and the green lobby have made sure of that. In my view the sooner we learn to use all this stuff to our advantage the better. If garages can get their head around it then so can the savvy amateur!

Bartfarst

Maybe the vehicle I owned was a bad example, but the IVECO is certainly expensive and the leads and software were not easily obtainable.
This appears to be a case where age is a fortunate advantage. At 10 years older than you I will probably clap out before all pre ecu trucks clap out. I spent years working on vehicle electrics and before that in electronics - audio amps - back in the days of valves. One of the first lessons in electronics always say avoid environments that are prone to heatt, where there is water, grease, oil and vibration. A pretty good description of under the bonnet.
I think modern vehicles are fine when young, inside the designed life, but when they get older they start to suffer. An example in 97 Mitsubishi fitted an ECU controlled diesel pump to the Pajero. These vehicles are now experiencing fuel pump / ecu faults - the imaginative solution many owners employ is to fit the earlier non ecu pump and injectors.
No I will stick with the easy solution, stick with the KISS principle I was taught in my apprentice days -
KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid

Jon,

Yes, I agree. Reliability decreases as temperature increases: it's the good old Arrhenius equation! I too know this from working on electronics, including valves (I have a small collection of vintage military communication receivers.) Adding oil, grease and vibration cannot help but make matters worse. So you could say that the newer ECU-driven systems will never be as reliable as the older mechanical, simpler systems. But if we want the performance and economy then I'm afraid we have little or no choice. The level of rubustness of these electronics has to be exceedingly high but, I agree, reliability will never be as high as if the electronics were not there!

I am not familiar with IVECO on-board diagnostics systems. I understand that there were a number of different systems when these intelligent sockets were introduced in the late 1990s or so. My old 2001 Citroen Xsara is a classic example: the socket resembles the usual OBD standard, but the wiring is different making it an oddball presumably requiring proprietary (and hence expensive) kit. However my understanding is that from around 2005 we entered a new period where compliance to EOBD standards was mandated by EU law, and many manufacturers complied with this, most well before having it forced upon them. So these oddball systems should essentially be diminishing but, I accept, that doesn't help if your AS predates this. All I can say is that in this day and age, if you're struggling with something then you can bet that others are too and you'll find some forum, freeware or improvised work-around out there on the web. The choice of software alone for EOBD is bewildering, and that's half of the problem: perhaps too much available information! Anyone out there got any favourite OBD software they would recommend?

Having said all that I'm all for KISS by the way!


Bartfarst

I too would be very interested to hear other people's experience of OBD hardware/software. My next van is going to be a VW, so I'm going to have to get to grips with VAGCOM (as I understand it, their "superset" of the standard OBD) at some stage.

For example, if I block off the EGR valve I'm going to need to make a change to the ECU so that it doesn't show up as an engine fault. And it seems that there are a lot of other functions that you can only turn on and off via the OBD socket...

Somewhere in the back of my mind I recall some reference that VAGCOM is only applicable to VWs late 1990/early 2000s so choose your next van carefully!

Also be aware that generally with VAGCOM, and I suspect other software offerings, the free version of the software is often a 'tempter' which is OK for reading information on the various controllers within the vehicle, logging information and scrubbing error lights/codes. However to actually change the operation of the ECU, as per may be necessary if you block-off your EGR valve, then you will need the full version. So having promoted the benefits of OBD etc, us amateurs can only get so far, unless someone else knows otherwise.


Bartfarst

Bartfarst
You are correct. The shareware version of VAG-COM permits you to read most falut codes and will allow you to clear fault codes. To change functionality you need to get the full kit, which is not cheap. There are a number of members on VW/Audi based forums who are happy to switch on/ off the function you need for a nominal fee / donation (often £10.00), which for most people is the way to go.

John

Thanks for the info. I had a feeling that it might be a bit expensive...

I'll probably start with something free and see how I get on. Another problem is that all of my hardware is Linux-based, so may need to run it in a virtual machine, but I've got a few months in which to do some research before I actually need to use it.

Hi there,

"Petal" has a 2.4 turbo diesel (that returns well over 32mpg towing a trailer or a boat), has just passed the 80,000 mile mark without incident, is well within the £15k budget and she has a toilet/shower fit for a Queen.

Best regards,

Ian
Can't argue with that, good facilities, good size , shame A/S no longer build them . The problem is once you have driven a VW based Van or M/Home you are faced with a difficult compromise.
Regards
John

shirelets wrote:We're (a trifle wistfully) planning to upgrade our 1986 VW Autohomes Komet to a £15k max price Symbol /Symphony / Duetto / Trident or similar......Pre 2000 non turbo diesels to be avoided or not? Anyone has thoughts. experience, recommendations, economy figures etc please let me know.

BIB.....most definitely not avoid! Well worth looking at.

Owned both in the way of Transits. First one was 2.5Di......in other words, straight injection non-turbo diesel. On a long run it would easily achieve 37 - 40mpg....and that's fully loaded too. Also quite a 'gutsy' engine that pulled very well. OK it was a SWB and fitted with relatively lightweight furniture, but as a comparison my 1.8 Focus car only achieves around 38mpg on a run!

Current van is a 2.5TDi.....so same size engine but with a turbo. Quite frankly the turbo is a bit of a joke and don't expect to even feel it. It's a LWB Duetto so a slightly longer wheelbase van, but also the interior furniture fittings are very heavy. This leads to a fuel consumption of around 30 - 32mpg. Loaded up you can expect to drop down into the high 20s. Don't let anyone tell you they get more than that because they are fooling themselves.

Bulletguy wrote:................... Quite frankly the turbo is a bit of a joke and don't expect to even feel it. ................

...................... Don't let anyone tell you they get more than that because they are fooling themselves.

Hi there,

Agree and strongly disagree!!

Agree. I owned three non-turbo Transits between 1986 and 1999 and they gave sterling service. I can't say that I gasped with surprise or even noticed any increased power when we got "Petal" who has a 2.4 Turbo.

Strongly disagree. We keep a very close check on fuel v. miles in "Petal" and after more than 20,000 miles we have never dropped below the 32mpg level; which is even better than average considering that we were towing either a boat or a trailer for at least 15,000 of those miles.

Fuel economy is just an attitude of mind where you:

1. Moderate your speed and engine revs. (We try to never exceed 50mph.)

2. Try to not use the brakes. (Just lift your foot off the accelerator at bends and coast to a stop at junctions etc.)

3. Accelerate and decelerate as if you have a glass of water on the dashboard and don't want to spill it!

Apart from the major increase in fuel economy you will also save on tyres!

So, "Loaded up you can expect to drop down into the high 20s"?? Only if you disregard the above advice.

Best regards,

Bulletguy wrote:Loaded up you can expect to drop down into the high 20s. Don't let anyone tell you they get more than that because they are fooling themselves.

I get more than that, and I'm not fooling myself.

I keep a very close record of fuel consumption - mileage is always recorded full-to-full, and averaged over at least four (typically six) fill-ups to take out the effects of not-quite-level garage forecourts.

Mine's a 1999 2.5 TDi - fully loaded I get 32mpg on a mix of motorway and slower roads, and earlier this year I exceeded 34mpg average over a 2-week trip, because most of the holiday involved motorways and A roads.

This may be partly because mine is a SWB and therefore lighter than a Duetto, but the good economy is mainly because I drive as Dutto suggests - I almost never exceed 60mph, and try to avoid braking wherever it's not necessary (for example coasting up to red traffic lights where possible).

I also try to keep the weight down, so for example I will always empty the water tank if travelling any distance, and I never carry any waste water around (although it has a waste tank, I always just use a bucket under the van!)

Don't forget the dreaded LEZ if you're planning to go that way !!

Dutto wrote:.....and after more than 20,000 miles we have never dropped below the 32mpg level; which is even better than average considering that we were towing either a boat or a trailer for at least 15,000 of those miles.

"Better than average"?

Unless your 'boat' is a Li-Lo or trailer the size of a shoe box.........i'd say it's a bloody miracle! Few cars will achieve that kind of mpg when towing boats or trailers, let alone a fully loaded 2.5ton panel van!

-mojo- wrote:

I get more than that, and I'm not fooling myself.

Mine's a 1999 2.5 TDi - fully loaded I get 32mpg on a mix of motorway and slower roads, and earlier this year I exceeded 34mpg average over a 2-week trip, because most of the holiday involved motorways and A roads.

This may be partly because mine is a SWB and therefore lighter than a Duetto......

No idea of the furniture type in your van but 1) SWB will make a difference, and 2) read what I wrote about the old SWB 'tranny' I had......fitted with 2.5Di.

And those mpg returns were not achieved by 'pussy footing' around on the accelerator either, rarely dropping below 60mph and often at 70mph. The engine had 'poke' despite having God knows how many miles on it. The Turbo on the 2.5TDi is a total joke and serves little purpose other than an expensive ornament!

I haven't driven one but I believe the later Mk6/7 models fitted with the 2.2TDCi are a very different story. Friends son has one he uses for business and reckons they are a much better performing engine. He should know when it comes to performance as his car is a highly modified 500bhp RS Cosworth!

-mojo- wrote:

Bulletguy wrote:Loaded up you can expect to drop down into the high 20s. Don't let anyone tell you they get more than that because they are fooling themselves.

I get more than that, and I'm not fooling myself.

I keep a very close record of fuel consumption - mileage is always recorded full-to-full, and averaged over at least four (typically six) fill-ups to take out the effects of not-quite-level garage forecourts.

Mine's a 1999 2.5 TDi - fully loaded I get 32mpg on a mix of motorway and slower roads, and earlier this year I exceeded 34mpg average over a 2-week trip, because most of the holiday involved motorways and A roads.

This may be partly because mine is a SWB and therefore lighter than a Duetto, but the good economy is mainly because I drive as Dutto suggests - I almost never exceed 60mph, and try to avoid braking wherever it's not necessary (for example coasting up to red traffic lights where possible).

I also try to keep the weight down, so for example I will always empty the water tank if travelling any distance, and I never carry any waste water around (although it has a waste tank, I always just use a bucket under the van!)

Just for information Mojo, coasting up to the traffic lights (or coasting downhill) actually uses fuel on modern diesels, because the engine is still running - when you lift off the throttle the fuel cuts (doesn't need fuel then) until you reach just abouve idle speed and it cuts back in again.