Upgrading petrol engine to diesel engine.

I have a 1990 Renault Rimini 1721 cc petrol engine camper and want to change the petrol engine to a 2.0 or 2.2 litre Renault or similar diesel engine.  Is this possible, any information would be appreciated.  Thanks.  Alan. 

First question - Why?

Frank

Hi Boxerman. 

Thanks for your prompt reply.  The reason I want to do it is that I find the camper, when loaded for touring, underpowered. 

I think a larger diesel engine would be better for this vehicle for power and economy.

The 2068cc diesel is down on power to 1721 petrol - some say sluggish   You can't turbo the naturally aspirated one because the pistons, bearings and possibly other things are different to the turbo model.
Economy wise, by the time you've spent money on buying the engine and ancillaries, uprated the front suspension & fitted power steering to compensate for the extra wieght you could have bought a h*ll of a lot of petrol and still had a more powerful van.

If you must have a diesel, a more sensible approach would be to sell your van as is (it'll be worth more  unmolested) and buy a diesel model.

BTW. I used to have the the model before the Rimini, the RV50 with 1647cc petrol. We toured all over the Highland, much of England & Wales with it. It would do well over 35mpg on a run and top 85mph (not at the same time though  )

Frank

Hi there,

I entirely agree with Frank.

Unless you retro fit a Ferrari F1 engine or something similar the motorhome will always be "sluggish", even when compared to a similar type of van; because a motorhome is at or near its maximum load limit almost all the time!!

Also, another reason for holding on to the petrol engine is that you will not be restricted by the Low Emission Zones that are springing up all over Europe and which can severely limit where you can take an older diesel powered van.

Hope this helps.   

Best regards,
 

Dutto wrote:Hi there,

I entirely agree with Frank.

Unless you retro fit a Ferrari F1 engine or something similar the motorhome will always be "sluggish", even when compared to a similar type of van; because a motorhome is at or near its maximum load limit almost all the time!!

Also, another reason for holding on to the petrol engine is that you will not be restricted by the Low Emission Zones that are springing up all over Europe and which can severely limit where you can take an older diesel powered van.

Hope this helps.   

Best regards,
 

Thanks Frank and Dutto for your information. 

 It looks like fitting a diesel engine is not the way to go. 

There surely must be a way to increase the performance of the petrol engine as most owners of these Renault campervans of that year think that they are underpowered.

I would appreciate it if anybody out there has any suggestions.

Alan

Canjayar wrote:
There surely must be a way to increase the performance of the petrol engine

Of course you could fit a higher lift cam different carb, four branch exhaust etc. etc.. but you don't get owt for nowt and what you'll gain in one place you'll lose in another (price of the parts for instance)

as most owners of these Renault campervans of that year think that they are underpowered.

I disagree. Some think they are underpowered but not most. How many 1721cc Trafic owners do you know? I can name over 40.(Without counting you or other ASOF members).

I would appreciate it if anybody out there has any suggestions.

Alan

What do you want all this power for? as I said perviously, my old Trafic had a less powerful engine that yours and would top 85mph - how fast do you want to go in a van?
Perhaps your engine needs a good checking over, new cambelts are known to have been fitted a tooth out which plays havoc with performance. Give the carb a good clean and check that all the jets are clear (and the right size) change plugs & leads, make sure the air filter is clean and that the temperature sensor at the bottom is working etc. etc...

Going out now speak later.

Frank

boxerman wrote:

Canjayar wrote:
There surely must be a way to increase the performance of the petrol engine

Of course you could fit a higher lift cam different carb, four branch exhaust etc. etc.. but you don't get owt for nowt and what you'll gain in one place you'll lose in another (price of the parts for instance)

 as most owners of these Renault campervans of that year think that they are underpowered.

I disagree. Some think they are underpowered but not most. How many 1721cc Trafic owners do you know? I can name over 40.(Without counting you or other ASOF members).

I would appreciate it if anybody out there has any suggestions.

Alan

What do you want all this power for? as I said perviously, my old Trafic had a less powerful engine that yours and would top 85mph - how fast do you want to go in a van?
Perhaps your engine needs a good checking over, new cambelts are known to have been fitted a tooth out which plays havoc with performance. Give the carb a good clean and check that all the jets are clear (and the right size) change plugs & leads, make sure the air filter is clean and that the temperature sensor at the bottom is working etc. etc...

Going out now speak later.

Frank

Hi Frank

It is not speed I am after.  I am quite happy to go at 60/65mph down the motorway which my camper will do, but I am more interested in power than speed. 

Recently touring in the Yorkshire Dales, at an incline or on a slight hill, I had to get right down in the gears and the engine does not seem to have the power to maintain revs.

I appreciate that the camper is heavy especially when loaded for touring and  there is no way that my vehicle will do 85mph.

Possibly it would benefit from a larger petrol engine.  Is there a larger Renault engine that would fit this year and model?

Alan

At the risk of repeating myself Alan, I think the first thing you need to do is to make sure that your existing engine is as good as it can be, before shelling out for another. Most of the owners who complain about lack of power with the 1721 are owners of hightops which are somewhat lacking in aerodynamics. The pop-tops slip through the air better. Perhaps you aren't giving it enough wellie? these engines aren't sloggers and do like to rev. My RV50 went over the Buttertubs & Sutton Bank better than my present van does with 109bhp on tap, it also went over the Bealach na Baa a couple of times without bother. Yes! you have to use the lower gears but it will do it!

If you still aren't convinced, there is a 1995cc petrol if you can get hold of one which might be the easiest swap, the next is the 2165cc which is a bit of a monster, (both petrol) no lack of power there but it's a BIG lump and it's fuel injection so you'd need the ECU and all ancillary equipment to go with it, as well as beefing up the front suspension and no doubt brakes. There is a 2500 diesel but if it's power you want then diesels of this era are a waste of time. If you can find a dead Espace with a turbo lump in it these can be made to fit but it ain't straight forward.
Everything in the above paragraph will cost a lot of money, if you are paying someone to do the work, probably more than the vans market value.

My honest advice to you is to:
Make sure you engine is in good tune.
Adapt your style of driving to suit the van.
Slow down a peg or two, it's a holiday   
Riminis are lovely little vans, I still miss our RV50 at times (especially when putting fuel in the Symphony   )

If you still aren't happy, sell your van as it is and look for one with the 2165cc lump in it.

Frank

boxerman wrote:At the risk of repeating myself Alan, I think the first thing you need to do is to make sure that your existing engine is as good as it can be, before shelling out for another. Most of the owners who complain about lack of power with the 1721 are owners of hightops which are somewhat lacking in aerodynamics. The pop-tops slip through the air better. Perhaps you aren't giving it enough wellie? these engines aren't sloggers and do like to rev. My RV50 went over the Buttertubs & Sutton Bank better than my present van does with 109bhp on tap, it also went over the Bealach na Baa a couple of times without bother. Yes! you have to use the lower gears but it will do it!

If you still aren't convinced, there is a 1995cc petrol if you can get hold of one which might be the easiest swap, the next is the 2165cc which is a bit of a monster, (both petrol) no lack of power there but it's a BIG lump and it's fuel injection so you'd need the ECU and all ancillary equipment to go with it, as well as beefing up the front suspension and no doubt brakes. There is a 2500 diesel but if it's power you want then diesels of this era are a waste of time. If you can find a dead Espace with a turbo lump in it these can be made to fit but it ain't straight forward.
Everything in the above paragraph will cost a lot of money, if you are paying someone to do the work, probably more than the vans market value.

My honest advice to you is to:
Make sure you engine is in good tune.
Adapt your style of driving to suit the van.
Slow down a peg or two, it's a holiday   
Riminis are lovely little vans, I still miss our RV50 at times (especially when putting fuel in the Symphony   )

If you still aren't happy, sell your van as it is and look for one with the 2165cc lump in it.

Frank

Hi Frank

Thanks for your advice. 

Is it possible to have the engine block rebored to maximum which I guess would be 40-60thou which should probably increase the power.  This would be probably the cheaper option for me as I could probably do the work myself.

I don't want to sell the camper as it is in immaculate condition and we love it, only done 50,000 miles, with one owner, apart from myself, from new.

Would I need to get the cam belt checked at a Renault garage?

The rest of the work as you suggest, I could probably do myself.

Alan.

Canjayar wrote:
Is it possible to have the engine block rebored to maximum which I guess would be 40-60thou which should probably increase the power.  This would be probably the cheaper option for me as I could probably do the work myself.

I think this could be theoretically possible, the 1397,1647 & 1995 engines have alloy blocks with wet liners but I "think" that the 1721 has an iron block. Where would you get the 60 thou oversize pistons and would a 60 thou overbore give that much more power?

As an aside here, to put things in perspective I have a lot of piston slap on No.1 cylinder due a badly worn piston.(won't go into details of why only one piston is worn) Peugeot want £100 + VAT for one piston with rings. Peugeot however will not sell me one piston with rings, they will only sell me a set of four - I still have piston slap!. Renault parts prices are similar to Pug ones.

I don't want to sell the camper as it is in immaculate condition and we love it, only done 50,000 miles, with one owner, apart from myself, from new.

Would I need to get the cam belt checked at a Renault garage?

The rest of the work as you suggest, I could probably do myself.

Can't see any reason why you cannot check the cambelt yourself, it's only a question of lining marks up, and if they don't line up, slipping the belt off and making them line up.

Frank

Me again! been sniffing around a bit. If you can find a Volvo 340 in a scrappy, they used the 1721cc Renault engine but gave 80bhp as compared to the 68 bhp of the Trafic engine. How much of this was down to carb, cam, ign module I don't know, perhaps the head had bigger valves & ports and a higher comp ratio? It had a bigger radiator too I believe.

Just a thought, it's a possible extra 12 bhp if you can find one and swap the right bits over.

Frank

EDIT: Volvo had 9.5:1 comp ratio & twin choke carb. Trafic 9.2:1 comp ratio single choke carb. Volvo not suitable for unleaded according to Autodata. No info about cam or ign module.

boxerman wrote:Me again! been sniffing around a bit. If you can find a Volvo 340 in a scrappy, they used the 1721cc Renault engine but gave 80bhp as compared to the 68 bhp of the Trafic engine. How much of this was down to carb, cam, ign module I don't know, perhaps the head had bigger valves & ports and a higher comp ratio? It had a bigger radiator too I believe.

Just a thought, it's a possible extra 12 bhp if you can find one and swap the right bits over.

Frank

EDIT: Volvo had 9.5:1 comp ratio & twin choke carb. Trafic 9.2:1 comp ratio single choke carb. Volvo not suitable for unleaded according to Autodata. No info about cam or ign module.

Thanks Frank for looking into it for me.  It sounds like a good possibility apart from not being suitable for unleaded petrol. 

I will make some enquiries from our local scrapyard.

What year would we be talking about  for the Volvo 340?

Alan

Canjayar wrote:

boxerman wrote:EDIT: Volvo had 9.5:1 comp ratio & twin choke carb. Trafic 9.2:1 comp ratio single choke carb. Volvo not suitable for unleaded according to Autodata. No info about cam or ign module.

Thanks Frank for looking into it for me.  It sounds like a good possibility apart from not being suitable for unleaded petrol. 

I wouldn't bother with the head, perhaps just the cam, ign module, carb & manifolds would give you what you want? I still say to make sure that yours is in proper tune before venturing further though. Don't forget that this extra power will probably be at the top end of the rev range and could be detrimental to the bottom end.

I will make some enquiries from our local scrapyard.

What year would we be talking about  for the Volvo 340?

I think they stopped making them around 1990 and not all 340s had the 1.7 engine - some were 1.4 and some 2.0 (according to wikipedia) Strange beasts, they had the gearbox on the back axle.

Frank

The head is flat - the combustion chambers are in the piston crowns like a diesel (or a Ford Kent engine), so the head is probably the same. That means, unfortunately, that to increase the compression you need to change the pistons. Hardly worth it for the tiny difference I'd say. I think the manifold is the same for single and twin choke carbs too. There is a bit bolted to the top of mine which converts a large oval hole to a small round one...

Honestly though, we've just come back from a 2-week holiday in northern France with ours (Rapport high top) and I don't find it underpowered. It's slow, sure, but it'll keep up with the flow of traffic and doesn't slow down on hills the way you describe. And I drive an Alfa normally, although when I got back in it the extra performance found me changing up into 6th at 90...

I'm guessing from your posts that you're pretty mechanically competent, so please forgive me for stating the obvious, but these are the things I'd check:

Air filter - it's a massive box but a tiny filter inside. I just changed it as a matter of course.

Throttle cable - there's very little pedal travel so it needs to be right. Pull out the plastic barrel thing until it's tight and go back one groove. Even a single groove out radically affects performance. Ask me how I know - doh.

Carb - there is a power jet in the Solex SEIA, assuming it's still fitted and it hasn't had a Weber or Zenith conversion, which some have. There's a little cover on the side of the float bowl held on with 3 screws. Check the spring and diaphragm in here - if the power jet isn't working it'll have a big effect on full throttle. Eric at the carburettor hospital is the man to talk to about bits.

It is possible that the valve timing is out. There is a TDC plug low down on the rear RHS as you look through the bonnet; 17mm hex head I think. It's on the rearmost crank web. Can be misleading because there are balancing cutouts too - on mine there's one which positions the cam exactly one tooth out! So, take the belt cover off, roughly line up the dot on the cam pulley at the top, take #1 plug out (Renault call it #4) and find TDC with a screwdriver. Then pop something (allen key or similar) through the TDC hole and wiggle the crank until it drops in. The mark on the cam pulley will line up with the mark on the rear cover. Or not, but it's easy to adjust.

You can check the ignition timing with a strobe; there are marks alongside the pickup which you can get to by taking the cover off inside the van. It should be 2 degrees BTDC (+/- 1) at 700 RPM with the vacuum pipe disconnected and plugged, not that the vacuum seems to make any difference on mine. If you rev it you should see it advancing. If it doesn't, or it's wrong at idle then all you can do is change the ignition module.

Failing all that there were 2 litre versions which are a lot more lively. There are still whole vans around - a complete engine / gearbox swap would be the easiest I reckon. There also a R21 with the 80bhp version of the 1721, but I reckon you'd sacrifice tractability.

Cheers,
Richard.

richardstubbs wrote:
Throttle cable - there's very little pedal travel so it needs to be right. Pull out the plastic barrel thing until it's tight and go back one groove. Even a single groove out radically affects performance. Ask me how I know - doh.

I remember one of our members grinning and telling me that he'd "tuned up" his van and he could now get another 10-15 mph out of it. I asked him what he'd done and he replied that he had cut the carpet away from under the accelerator pedal    Not all Trafics have carpet in the cab (this was a 2ltr Eriba 530) but the principle is the same.

Frank

boxerman wrote:

richardstubbs wrote:
Throttle cable - there's very little pedal travel so it needs to be right. Pull out the plastic barrel thing until it's tight and go back one groove. Even a single groove out radically affects performance. Ask me how I know - doh.

I remember one of our members grinning and telling me that he'd "tuned up"  his van and he could now get another 10-15 mph out of it. I asked him what he'd done and he replied that he had cut the carpet away from under the accelerator pedal    Not all Trafics have carpet in the cab (this was a 2ltr Eriba 530) but the principle is the same.

Frank

Hi Frank and Richard,

Thanks for the information and also the tip about the carpet below the accelerator pedal. 

I am in the process of tuning the engine and also trying to find a 2 litre petrol engine.  Will the 2 litre engine fit straight in or are there any modifications to engine mounts etc.

I will also try to make sure that I am getting full throttle.

Regards.

Alan

Canjayar wrote:I am in the process of tuning the engine and also trying to find a 2 litre petrol engine.  Will the 2 litre engine fit straight in or are there any modifications to engine mounts etc.

To be honest, I don't know how difficult it would be. I do know of one of our members wanted to swap a 1647 for a 1995. They bought a donor van and were paying a local garage to do the work. The job dragged on and on, the labour charges went up and up. They were paying him so much per month and finished up giving the van to the garage to cover the cost. In other words they paid out a lot of money and then lost their van in the end.
I have my own feelings about the garage in question and theirs was an earlier model than yours but it would seem that the job is not exactly straight forward.

You would need the whole van as a donor. I think the crossmember might be different. The 1995 is a crossflow so the carb & exhaust are on opposite sides of the head, unlike the 1721. You'd need to find out weights and dimensions of both engines. Obviously it will fit, the factory did it but how many parts are interchangable? I don't know.

I will also try to make sure that I am getting full throttle.

That's a good start   

Frank

Everything Frank says.

Renault have this habit of making a range of vehicles which are externally similar but share very few components. Witness the R21 - the 1.7 is transverse, the bigger petrols and 2.1D are inline. So almost everything, even the wheelbase, is different.

At least both the engines are the same way round in the Trafic. Apparently the early diesels had a different bulkhead to accomodate a bigger gearbox, but that shouldn't apply to the petrols. The 'Phase 2' (yours) should be easier than the 'Phase 1' because that has two different front ends, radiator further forward etc. The Phase 2 doesn't. But I also think you'd need to have both vans side by side really, and take off everything you need, which means buying an MoT failure or similar. Job to find one now though.

Many years ago a I helped a friend to put the 1.6 OHC engine out of a late Mk3 Cortina into an early, OHV Mk3, which is totally different under the bonnet. We had the two cars side by side, and there were loads of odd little bits we needed, e.g. the alternator is on the other side so we cut that bit of wiring off the donor car. Still had it done in time to go to the pub in it though...

All things are possible - back then I knew (different) people who put a 4.2 Jag XK in a Mk1 Granada, and a Triumph 2000 6-cylinder petrol engine in a Commer walkthough (I think - a big van anyway), and the Mk1 Trafic is pleasingly old-fashioned in the same way. No ECU or anything to worry about.

Good luck with the throttle cable   

Richard.

I have an acquaintance who puts oddball engines in Transits, a Supra twin turbo being one of his ventures.  

Thanks richardstubbs and meanchris for your replies.  Sorry for delay in replying but been getting camper through its m.o.t.  Both sound interesting, have you any more information which would help me. 

Regards.

Canjayar.

Canjayar wrote: Both sound interesting, have you any more information which would help me. 

Regards.

Canjayar.

You could try watching the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] youtube videos

Frank

1990 RENAULT RIMINI T1100 TRAFIC CAMPERVAN

Does anybody out there know if I can fit the 1995 cc J5R petrol or the 2165 cc J7T petrol engine in my 1990 Renault Rimini Trafic T1100 campervan to replace the existing 1721 cc F1N petrol engine, front wheel drive. 

I believe the 1995 cc J5R engine and the 2165 cc J7T engine were fitted with either front or  rear wheel drive after 1991 in the Renault Trafic.

Any information at all on the question would be much appreciated.

Regards.

Canjayar