Topaz leisure battery issues

As I begin to learn about our Topaz (2000 W reg) one issue is baffling me. I have had my 'leisure' battery tested by two different battery places and both say it is in good condition. The normal vehicle battery (black in the image) could do with a good run out but isn't the issue. The leisure battery may not actually be a proper leisure battery but I will come to that later.

The problem will only be an issue when off grid as all other functions work on hook-up. Not sure if it will effect any gas use when off grid, ie fridge ignition light etc.

My problem: 

Day to day I have the main switch, light switch and water pump switch turned off on the panel.

After a drive I have found the battery indicator, when the main switch is on, showing full. As such the lights and water pump work.

If I check after the van has been parked up over night with all switches off the battery indicator shows flat and lights and pump do not function. 

The local battery company believes my current battery will stop supplying power once it dips below a small amount, say 12.3v. When they checked it it was reading over 13v after a short drive and the lights came on when checked. (please don't quote me on the exact figures...) My other headache option is that there could be a drain in the system..!

My question to fellow Topaz owners and maybe other VW owners does a) the set-up shown in the image look the same as yours and b) what leisure battery do you have because I'm struggling to find one that will fit into the space. The current one is 310L x 170W x 190H, the air filter housing does restrict the height available, the length isn't such a problem...

I am off grid over the coming weekend which isn't a major problem but advice would be welcomed, especially about possible solutions about upgrading the battery. 

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Hi  

Skeena wrote: The local battery company believes my current battery will stop supplying power once it dips below a small amount, say 12.3v.

Que !    It will supply power until the voltage is so low that the  that  equipment stops working.  The lights will probably work down to 10 or 11V (just be dim).

Skeena wrote:I am off grid over the coming weekend which isn't a major problem but advice would be welcomed, especially about possible solutions about upgrading the battery.

I wouldn’t start thinking about changing things until you’re sure what the problem is. Easiest first step is probably take the van for a drive, check the battery voltage and the disconnect the earth lead. Then see if the battery still goes flat.

The next step will depend on the result.

Don’t be tempted to guess, you can waste a lot of time and money that way.

Brod

Brod, thanks for your reply. 

Re lights I was thinking the same, why don't the lights have any power if the battery is just slightly under. It's as if it is totally flat or something stops the power getting through. Unfortunately without driving it somewhere that has a tester (I don't) it appears to kick it into life again! 

As for the second bit that suggests to me I'm looking at having to use an electrics guys to fault find, bit by bit... 

It will still be nice to see if the set up is the same on other Topaz or if a proper leisure battery is known to fit.

Hi  

Skeena wrote: I'm looking at having to use an electrics guys to fault find, bit by bit

If you want to get it looked at by a pro fine, but  you don’t actually know you’ve got a fault (other than a possible faulty battery)yet.  Plenty of expertise on here if you want some guidance on doing it yourself.

Brod

brodco wrote:Hi  

Skeena wrote: I'm looking at having to use an electrics guys to fault find, bit by bit

If you want to get it looked at by a pro fine, but  you don’t actually know you’ve got a fault (other than a possible faulty battery)yet.  Plenty of expertise on here if you want some guidance on doing it yourself.

Brod

Well I've learnt something already tonight. Having taken your advice and disconnected the earth I discovered the lights and pump still worked..! What I was told was the leisure battery is in fact the van one. The black battery is the one that needs addressing before anything else. It was that one, when tested this morning, that needed 'a good run up the motorway'. 

This battery appears to be a 75Ah but make or type can't be seen. 

If anyone comes up with some testing to do I'll see if I can do it. A friend I'm camping with over the weekend is bringing up a multi-meter and some of the other guys with us are wizards with different things. I was just hoping to get it sorted beforehand but it might be the 'project' for the meeting...

I guess it's a bit late to say this now, but... the general rule is that if the battery terminals have thick cables, the battery will be for the engine/vehicle (because it needs to turn the engine when starting) and if they are relatively thin, that's the leisure battery.

Do you have a solar panel? I ask because it can make diagnosis very confusing if you have...

Roopert wrote:I guess it's a bit late to say this now, but... the general rule is that if the battery terminals have thick cables, the battery will be for the engine/vehicle (because it needs to turn the engine when starting) and if they are relatively thin, that's the leisure battery.

Do you have a solar panel? I ask because it can make diagnosis very confusing if you have...

Thanks for your reply. To be honest to me the wire thickness looks much the same and I would have thought a battery expert would have know but with so many different versions I don't blame them if they haven't seen the Topaz set up before.

As for having a solar panel, no I haven't got one but it has been suggested it could be useful.

Ok, that will make fault-finding easier. One of the first things you could do is to check all of the obvious fuses (I think I can see three in view in your photo) to make sure that none of them are blown.

Roopert wrote:Ok, that will make fault-finding easier. One of the first things you could do is to check all of the obvious fuses (I think I can see three in view in your photo) to make sure that none of them are blown.

I will do that tomorrow, there are two on what I think is a relay and a very large on below. When the battery is charged the lights and water pump work, wouldn't that mean the fuses are ok?

Locating the earthing point(s), cleaning and refitting with conductive grease applied...would always be a useful exercise with a 20 year old vehicle.  
Keith

The leisure battery needs removing from the vehicle and fully charging on a battery charger, leave to stand for a few hours and then take a voltage reading ,it should be around 12.7v if fully charged.

  You can then have the battery load tested ( my local car parts shop does this ,so may be yours will) this will so if the battery needs replacing, with it been only 75ah you only have 35ah to play with, this also deteriorates over time so will be even less depending on age of battery,

It may be better just to replace with the largest you can get in the space if you don’t know the history and how it’s been looked after

Hi  

Skeena wrote:After a drive I have found the battery indicator, when the main switch is on, showing full. As such the lights and water pump work.

If I check after the van has been parked up over night with all switches off the battery indicator shows flat and lights and pump do not function.

Roopert wrote:Ok, that will make fault-finding easier. One of the first things you could do is to check all of the obvious fuses (I think I can see three in view in your photo) to make sure that none of them are blown.

I don’t think it’s likely that a fuse has blown - they tend not to repair themselves.  Agreed it could be a faulty fuse holder but the symptoms don’t really fit that either. Personally I’d check the power supply (i.e. Battery) first.

What was the result of leaving the charged battery disconnected overnight - did it still go flat?  Best measured with an independent volt meter if you have one. If it did you’ll need a new battery (which may well cure the problem) before going any further. Having the right test equipment makes things easier but is not essential at this point.

If it didn’t go flat more tests are needed but I don’t think you’re at that point yet. incidentally you can be the proud owner of your own meter that will do anything you are likely to need it to for under a tenner and investing in a battery charger will save you driving up a down the motorway.

These two devices are useful for any motorhome owner to have around whether or not there is a problem.

Brod

brodco wrote:I don’t think it’s likely that a fuse has blown - they tend not to repair themselves.

While I'm not going to dispute that fuses don't repair themselves, the reason for suggesting a check of the fuses is because this is an older van, and you really have no way of knowing what dumb modifications a previous owner might have made. So it is ~possible~ that although the OP thinks that the power is coming from the leisure battery, it might actually be coming from the vehicle battery.

The main reason to suggest checking the fuses is that it should take around a minute to do, and it's easy. I have known of quite a few cases where people have replaced very expensive components (e.g. a main body control module) only to find later that the cause of the problem was a blown fuse...

Roopert wrote:

brodco wrote:I don’t think it’s likely that a fuse has blown - they tend not to repair themselves.

While I'm not going to dispute that fuses don't repair themselves, the reason for suggesting a check of the fuses is because this is an older van, and you really have no way of knowing what dumb modifications a previous owner might have made. So it is ~possible~ that although the OP thinks that the power is coming from the leisure battery, it might actually be coming from the vehicle battery.

The main reason to suggest checking the fuses is that it should take around a minute to do, and it's easy. I have known of quite a few cases where people have replaced very expensive components (e.g. a main body control module) only to find later that the cause of the problem was a blown fuse...

Thank you, very good points, it is very likely the van has had some mods in the past. 

I have established the black battery is what feeds the control panel. I disconnected this overnight and when I checked it this morning using my battery charger it first showed 10.1v before it started charging. Connecting it back up resulted in the pump and light lasting less than 10 seconds. I have disconnected it totally again and giving it a charge. I suspect the battery is beyond use but I'm just checking.

brodco wrote:Hi  

Skeena wrote:After a drive I have found the battery indicator, when the main switch is on, showing full. As such the lights and water pump work.

If I check after the van has been parked up over night with all switches off the battery indicator shows flat and lights and pump do not function.

Roopert wrote:Ok, that will make fault-finding easier. One of the first things you could do is to check all of the obvious fuses (I think I can see three in view in your photo) to make sure that none of them are blown.

I don’t think it’s likely that a fuse has blown - they tend not to repair themselves.  Agreed it could be a faulty fuse holder but the symptoms don’t really fit that either. Personally I’d check the power supply (i.e. Battery) first.

What was the result of leaving the charged battery disconnected overnight - did it still go flat?  Best measured with an independent volt meter if you have one. If it did you’ll need a new battery (which may well cure the problem) before going any further. Having the right test equipment makes things easier but is not essential at this point.

If it didn’t go flat more tests are needed but I don’t think you’re at that point yet. incidentally you can be the proud owner of your own meter that will do anything you are likely to need it to for under a tenner and investing in a battery charger will save you driving up a down the motorway.

These two devices are useful for any motorhome owner to have around whether or not there is a problem.

Brod

Brod, thanks for all that. I did disconnect it overnight and it went down to 10.1v so very likely it is knackered. I'm giving it a charge with my battery charger (I have one of those...) but I'm not hopeful. My next task will be to search for a replacement. The size is the biggest hurdle but I have been directed to some possibles. Thanks for your help. 

Agreed - if it has sat at 10V for any length of time then it probably isn't worth trying to save it.

The example I had in mind is where someone had added wiring so that the radio could be used from either the vehicle or the leisure battery - without realising that their mod had permanently wired the two battery positives together! Hopefully you don't find any previous owner mods like that...

Roopert wrote:Agreed - if it has sat at 10V for any length of time then it probably isn't worth trying to save it.

The example I had in mind is where someone had added wiring so that the radio could be used from either the vehicle or the leisure battery - without realising that their mod had permanently wired the two battery positives together! Hopefully you don't find any previous owner mods like that...

So far I have only found one puzzling thing which on examination shouldn't be an issue as the wires to it are about 3" long and go nowhere. That is a silver push button under the right hand side of the dash. The radio only works on ignition and as far as I can tell the only standard electrics that work when the ignition is off is the cigarette lighter. That might well be a mod done since new. 

The mystery button...  

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KMRTOPAZ wrote:Locating the earthing point(s), cleaning and refitting with conductive grease applied...would always be a useful exercise with a 20 year old vehicle.  
Keith

That is a job that won't be easy for me especially if I need to twist and turn looking for them. I will see what can be done. Cheers.

If the wiring has been disconnected it's anyone's guess. I've got something similar added (by me) for a garage door opener (which is unlikely with a Topaz) but it could have been for an electric gate controller or something like that? It looks to be a non-latching type, but you can't always tell from external appearance.

If it's a latching switch it could have been for a much wider range of uses - I put a similar latching switch on my Flair to keep the satnav powered on with the ignition off, but it could be for any number of things!

If it's any help:
Your original pic looks identical to our 2001 Topaz.
In which case the black battery (the one that's more difficult to get at!) is the leisure one.
I found the XV94MF battery from Tayna which should fit.

shargrea wrote:If it's any help:
Your original pic looks identical to our 2001 Topaz.
In which case the black battery (the one that's more difficult to get at!) is the leisure one.
I found the XV94MF battery from Tayna which should fit.

Thanks for your reply. I was away over the weekend for my first trip in the Topaz. I took a new battery with me and after the old one, which had been fully charged, failed during the first night I changed them over. Everything works great now so I just need to manage the battery which will not be a problem as the van will be used for our day trips out and about.

For interest I have now got a 12v 90AH Expedition Plus Semi Traction Leisure Battery from Alpha Batteries. 

shargrea wrote:If it's any help:
Your original pic looks identical to our 2001 Topaz.
In which case the black battery (the one that's more difficult to get at!) is the leisure one.
I found the XV94MF battery from Tayna which should fit.

The leisure battery in my 2000 Topaz is INSIDE the van underneath the gas cooker. Any ideawhy it would be different?

Apologise for going off-thread.

JPCoetzee wrote:

shargrea wrote:If it's any help:
Your original pic looks identical to our 2001 Topaz.
In which case the black battery (the one that's more difficult to get at!) is the leisure one.
I found the XV94MF battery from Tayna which should fit.

The leisure battery in my 2000 Topaz is INSIDE the van underneath the gas cooker. Any ideawhy it would be different?

Apologise for going off-thread.

Yours may have been moved by a previous owner, I had thought to do the same if I had problems finding a small enough battery to do the job. Or AS couldn't make up their minds when building them. Mine is a 2.4D, if yours is a 2.5D turbo there may not have been room...

Skeena wrote:

JPCoetzee wrote:

shargrea wrote:If it's any help:
Your original pic looks identical to our 2001 Topaz.

The leisure battery in my 2000 Topaz is INSIDE the van underneath the gas cooker. Any idea why it would be different?

Yours may have been moved by a previous owner, I had thought to do the same if I had problems finding a small enough battery to do the job. Or AS couldn't make up their minds when building them. Mine is a 2.4D, if yours is a 2.5D turbo there may not have been room...

It is indeed the 2.5d turbo and there wouldn't be space under the bonnet!

i moved a leisure battery from the cupboard below the cooker in a T4 Topaz. Not only was it occupying a valuable space, it was in the middle of the valuable space. Can't remember details, I sometimes have difficulty remembering yesterday  !!  But the vehicle battery was fitted crossways and turning it along fore and aft line made adequate room for the existing leisure battery.   Keith