Re: Solar panel add on

by Dbvwt Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:56 pm

Glyne, after my successful internal upgrade of a new dual controller wired directly to the batteries, I’m also now considering adding a second panel.

Greyhound, Baggiecamper and myself have the same compact Symbol and as much as I would love to run a nice big cable down into the van from the roof, I don’t think it’s an easy job.
Our Symbols can only accommodate another 80 watt panel due to size restrictions on the roof so we are talking a max 160 watts. My thinking is that the existing cabling to the back of the EC500 will be fine (not that tiny wire that is between the EC500 controller and EC500 cct board).
Greyhound has run his setup on the existing cable without issue and when connecting the existing cable to my new controller, I am confident it can handle what 160 watts can throw at it.

by IanH Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:27 pm

D

In reality your 160w, only achievable with direct over head full sun, btw, will be circa 8A, this because the panel wattage is measured at the panel voltage, usually circa 22vdc.

In real terms you can work on circa 6, poss 7A max.

My 100w panel rarely exceeds 5A, usually 4 max

by Dbvwt Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:38 pm

Indeed Ian hence my thoughts. I’m no expert by a long way so will happily listen to reasons not to use the existing cable.

by glyne lock Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:45 pm

Dave
you have a panel that has the pockets in it to the left of the cooker .when you remove this it should give you access to get the cables from the roof down to below the seat to here .the hard part is getting from behind the lockers .i helped RV with this and he managed to do it on his kemerton xl van .I was told I would have to remove the lockers by a A/S dealer workshop but did this with them left in place .your van is much the same as the kemerton with the lockers .with your skills I have seen from other jobs you have done I sure you can do the wiring here . its getting a line down first to pull the cables down.i use a small plastic air pipe to guide the line from the roof down the back of the locker then pull the line across to the panel with the pockets and you have the line in place to pull your cables down.

by Dbvwt Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:57 pm

Thanks Glyne, your thoughts correspond exactly like mine did.
I recently took that panel with pockets to the left of the cooker off expecting to see a tricky but achievable way of routing a cable from the roof.
It was solid metal all the way from the cupboard down to where the cables existed at low level.
I was very surprised as I’ve done self builds on a VW T5 and Vivaro and these vertical pillars had holes allowing easy cable routing.

by glyne lock Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:32 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]This is the pipe to get the line to drop down the back of the locker and the panel I removed to get the wires down from the locker to the seat I had to remove the screws at the bottom of the locker.i do normally come down the pillar behind the drivers seat but wanted to use the same cover plate .as you said you no longer have the very small cable at the ec500 end but not been able to see the connection behind the lockers is not great and the wire size used by Sargent I would not want to be putting any more load on them

by Dbvwt Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:51 pm

Thanks for the info/photos Glyne.

If only it was that simple on the Symbol. I value your input and will send you a couple of photos tomorrow up!

by glyne lock Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:07 pm

some photos well be great to help out here and the position of the old cable entry into the roof is it above the middle locker

by Dbvwt Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:14 pm

To be continued..... smile!

by glyne lock Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:50 pm

Dbvwt wrote:To be continued.....

by Dbvwt Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:05 am

Here are those pictures. The solar panel cable pops out with a mass of other cables behind the grey flap in the second photo.
I’ve got to assume it then runs vertically in the vans pillar to the ceiling behind the top cupboards.

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by glyne lock Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:30 am

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looking at the picture of the window you have the 3 round blanks and screws I remover these to give a small gape I then used the pipe and line with a nut on the end to drop a line down the back of the lockers that have aprox 15 mm gape at the back panel .I then got the line to come out down the back of the locker and pulled it along to the panel I had removed in my picture .I could now use the line to get the cables to the panel I had remove and had just a small hole to put the cable through at the locker and down the back of this panel and down to behind the heater under the seat . you may have to make a small cut out in the bottom of your locker I would need to see a picture with the pocket panel removed to help here. you will not get the cables down the pillar unless you removed the locker as I was told I would have to. I did send pictures to Relaxez -Vous to help him to be able to do this .I now think I should had posted it to help others as well as I have no longer have got the pictures that may have helped here .i see what has been said about the heaters how yours is fitted .mine is fitted that I can get to the panel and makes better use of the space

by Baggiecamper Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:25 pm

Thanks all for your comments.

How's this for a cunning plan?

I'm not sure of components and detail yet, it's the feasibility I want to establish first.

Install the second 80W solar panel in the available position. Cable to the wardrobe through the roof via a new gland box.

Cut the existing solar panel cable inside the existing gland box on the roof and divert the output through the roof to the wardrobe via the same new gland box.

Run a suitably sized cable from the wardrobe down under the seat and through the existing floor vent to the underside of the van - relatively easy, I have already run a concealed extra satellite/TV cable to the back of the van this way.
Bring this cable back up to a new controller through the floor the other side. This will come up under the bed behind the boiler.

The cables in the wardrobe can be configured in a switch box so the panels can be in series OR parallel. I am thinking a three position switch with contact blocks. The centre position resulting in both panels disconnected.

In the winter series connection can be used. When on hook-up or bright overhead sunshine parallel can be selected.

Could I wire to the leisure battery ignoring existing wiring?

In the future I would like to change the leisure battery to Lithium too.

by Relaxez-Vous Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:55 pm

Like glyne when fitting a second solar panel, after removing the white cap I carefully drilled a second hole in the roof to take the 2nd solar panel's cable. Like him I used a plastic tube as shown in his photo. I used thinnish piano wires in turn inside the tube to drive a hole through the Dacron insulation, then once made pushed more plastic tube inside to get it behind a locker. I'd done some aero modelling in the past where piano wire is used to make planes undercarriages.

I then used some stiff high amperage thick semi-flexible cable through the plastic tube, after a few metres had gone in, a loop appeared in a gap I'd opened up above a window as glyne had done. This had involved unscrewing some screws and wedging open a small gap.

Around this time I'd bought a flexible endoscope camera which proved most useful. Believe it or not more than twice I ended up having to remake the route from the roof, though by this time the hole I'd made in the the Dacron became easier to find. I could screw a small hook on the end of the camera lens to pick up the cable as it came down from the roof and behind the locker. I then used the first temporary cable to thread the solar cable inside. So apart from glyne being a trailblazer here, I view having an endoscope camera as highly useful.

by Greyhound Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:21 am

Baggiecamper wrote:

Hi Greyhound
I would like to copy your modification.
Did you connect the cable for your second panel to the Autosleepers fitted connection box on the roof.
Did you have to make any changes to set up inside the van. (connections, wiring or parameters)
Thanks
Richard

I dug out the wire from the existing panel (lots of slack coiled under the panel) and cut into it to to splice the new one in parallel. The wires from the original panel are fine for a second IMO.

Even in summer with clear blue sky and roaring sun it's generating around 6.5A max (from my display monitoring the power levels). With an output voltage of around 20v that's giving around 130w, and that was only the high peak power generated, not a constant power throughout the day. The cable that is ran through the roof in the original setup is pretty decent and I'm happy with the setup. I've got a 3kw fan heater in the house that has mains cable no bigger than that used in this setup, so I think it should be able to handle this power for daylight hours. I'll not debate the issue further though as threads end up getting messy, but you have to do what you feel is comfortable and nothing wrong with over engineering if you want to replace it for higher rated cable smile!

Inside the van, I removed the cheap (rubbish) PWM controller that is fitted to the EC500 as standard so that the system no longer registers a solar input and fed the wiring from the panels straight into my new MPPT controller. From there I ran new wiring direct to the batteries with inline fuses (10A) on the live at the battery terminals, which I always do simply as a precaution should any short occur in the future anywhere in the cabling to the controller.

When the van is in storage I now turn off the EC500 fully (the push button switch on the actual unit) and the solar is still actively charging both batteries. Seems to work well and now over a year later have had no issues up!

I don't want to take credit for this by the way - most of this is from what I've read on here, so this is not something I've come up with as a solar genius, just what I've read from others and based my setup on.

by Relaxez-Vous Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:04 am

An edit is no longer possible.
I should have added In my account above that after I first ran a thick single stranded cable from the hole in the roof down inside, I then used it to thread some thin braided polyester line instead. I then sellotaped the end of the solar cable out on the roof to the middle of the polyester line, whilst I pushed the solar cable through the hole in the roof my wife gently pulled down on the line from inside the van. If the cable got came unstuck I still had the polyester line following the route so I could have another go. At first me joining the end of solar cable to the end of my first cable didn't work, my join was too thick to thread through the small hole in the roof or to make sharp right angled turns.

by glyne lock Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:36 pm

Greyhound wrote:
Baggiecamper wrote:

Hi Greyhound
I would like to copy your modification.
Did you connect the cable for your second panel to the Autosleepers fitted connection box on the roof.
Did you have to make any changes to set up inside the van. (connections, wiring or parameters)
Thanks
Richard

I dug out the wire from the existing panel (lots of slack coiled under the panel) and cut into it to to splice the new one in parallel. The wires from the original panel are fine for a second IMO.

Even in summer with clear blue sky and roaring sun it's generating around 6.5A max (from my display monitoring the power levels). With an output voltage of around 20v that's giving around 130w, and that was only the high peak power generated, not a constant power throughout the day. The cable that is ran through the roof in the original setup is pretty decent and I'm happy with the setup. I've got a 3kw fan heater in the house that has mains cable no bigger than that used in this setup, so I think it should be able to handle this power for daylight hours. I'll not debate the issue further though as threads end up getting messy, but you have to do what you feel is comfortable and nothing wrong with over engineering if you want to replace it for higher rated cable

Inside the van, I removed the cheap (rubbish) PWM controller that is fitted to the EC500 as standard so that the system no longer registers a solar input and fed the wiring from the panels straight into my new MPPT controller. From there I ran new wiring direct to the batteries with inline fuses (10A) on the live at the battery terminals, which I always do simply as a precaution should any short occur in the future anywhere in the cabling to the controller.

When the van is in storage I now turn off the EC500 fully (the push button switch on the actual unit) and the solar is still actively charging both batteries. Seems to work well and now over a year later have had no issues

I don't want to take credit for this by the way - most of this is from what I've read on here, so this is not something I've come up with as a solar genius, just what I've read from others and based my setup on.

Rob
the cable on the solar panel only goes into the roof and has a joint just inside the roof. when you buy the panel that A/S use it comes with a cable long enough to go all the way down to your controller.so with a joint you cant get to with out a lot of work is part of the reason why I wanted to fit a new cable directly .lots of wires all come down the pillar between the windows and if the solar wires did get hot would do a lot of damage and have no fuse at the panel end so would not cut the power if the cables did start to melt

by gobsmacked Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:25 pm

Baggiecamper wrote:....
The cables in the wardrobe can be configured in a switch box so the panels can be in series OR parallel. I am thinking a three position switch with contact blocks. The centre position resulting in both panels disconnected.

In the winter series connection can be used. When on hook-up or bright overhead sunshine parallel can be selected.
....

Hello Baggiecamper,

did you have managed to install the switch solution you mentioned? I was thinking of something similar but in practice had no idea how do do it confused3

by Baggiecamper Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:19 pm

gobsmacked wrote:
Baggiecamper wrote:....
The cables in the wardrobe can be configured in a switch box so the panels can be in series OR parallel. I am thinking a three position switch with contact blocks. The centre position resulting in both panels disconnected.

In the winter series connection can be used. When on hook-up or bright overhead sunshine parallel can be selected.
....
Hello Baggiecamper,

did you have managed to install the switch solution you mentioned? I was thinking of something similar but in practice had no idea how do do it

Hi gobsmacked
No, I have not added another panel yet. I am contemplating a bigger upgrade with Lithium battery and B2B charger.
I think this switch would do the job of switching from Parallel to Series.

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The switch is best mounted in a small enclosure in the top of the wardrobe to minimise the length of cable the current passes through when in Series.
I have done a sketch of how I would connect it.
I would not recommend changing the switch position when solar panels are on load because it could cause arcing of the switch contacts.
Maybe change over at night when it is dark.

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by Guest Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:41 am

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A double pole double throw switch can be used to select Series/Parallel

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With the switch 1 > 2 both positives are connected to the controller positive and similarly the negatives together. AKA in parallel

With the switch 2 > 3 Panel 1 positive is disconnected from the controller as is panel 2 negative. These are then shorted together via the jumper on terminals A3/B3. AKA in Series

I don't know if the controller would object to a sudden change of input voltages but a centre off allows it to shut down before the new configuration was applied to its terminals.

by matchlessman Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:54 am

I'm surprised so many people need two panels. I have 1 and never have a problem. Perhaps changing bulbs to LED or reducing other loads might be a simpler option?
I use Brit stops without hook up a lot, with the tv etc. The van is parked on the drive for weeks at a time and both batteries are always full.

by Dbvwt Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:50 am

matchlessman wrote:I'm surprised so many people need two panels. I have 1 and never have a problem. Perhaps changing bulbs to LED or reducing other loads might be a simpler option?
I use Brit stops without hook up a lot, with the tv etc. The van is parked on the drive for weeks at a time and both batteries are always full.

I guess you don’t have an EC500/700 in your van smile!

by matchlessman Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:24 am

No, I have something that works. When the van is in use everything is topped up by the engine. When not in use I shut the system down and let the solar panel and controller do their thing. Both batteries are connected to the solar. I have an option of 50/50 or 70 to leisure and 30 to vehicle batteries. Most of the time it's on 50/50. If travelling more often and stopping for 2 or 3 days, I would use the 70% leisure setting.

by glyne lock Fri Oct 01, 2021 9:40 am

Dbvwt wrote:
matchlessman wrote:I'm surprised so many people need two panels. I have 1 and never have a problem. Perhaps changing bulbs to LED or reducing other loads might be a simpler option?
I use Brit stops without hook up a lot, with the tv etc. The van is parked on the drive for weeks at a time and both batteries are always full.

I guess you don’t have an EC500/700 in your van

The solar system fitted by A/S is great for the sales man .lots of people say that there solar is ok but this is all down to how you use the van .are you parked not starting the van for days and just using the 12volt system and solar you have fitted to stay powered up.are you starting the engine each day and driving the van and using 240 ehu regular .you fit a solar system as to your needs and camper use. A good solar system we’ll help the life of your batteries alternator and can be very important for people that leave vans in storage sites

by matchlessman Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:13 am

I can sit on a site for days just living off the panel. Daytime current draw is negligible, and evenings watching tv using lights etc is all covered by the panel when the controller is switched to 70% leisure. When it sits on my drive for weeks on end I put it on 50/50 to cover the alarm etc drain.
Minimise current drain. When not in use shut down the controller and use a decent regulator. If it's just to keep things topped up on your drive, just a few hours a week of charge is probably enough. In winter I dont use the van as much and when I do I'm usually driving it about more, or on a site with hookup.