What am I missing?

Hey folks

A short while ago we decided we needed to upgrade out AS Symbol with something a bit newer... Off we went to the NEC with an open mind but keen to check out the Autosleeper stand. We wanted a 6m PVC.

We quite liked the Warwick Duo but struggled to see how they could justify eye-watering cost...

On the Marquis stand we spotted a Benimar Benivan and a Roller Team Toleno. The Benivan was more suited as we didn't like the tall cupboard behind the driver's seat in the Toleno. This was our deal-breaker for the Toleno unfortunately.

Benivan standard specification is pretty good - it's based on the 5.99m long-wheelbase Fiat Ducato.
150bhp engine
Six-speed manual gearbox / optional Comfort-Matic (our choice)
DAB radio, cab air-conditioning, cruise control, GPS, reversing camera, cab chairs with twin armrests and height adjustment, 16in alloy wheels, a colour-coded front bumper, cab blinds, a leather steering wheel with radio/phone switches, automatic headlights and windscreen wipers
Classic two-berth design with rear lounge
Fitted microwave, 2 ring burner, an underslung 25-litre gas tank, a 100W solar panel and Truma Combi 4kW gas/electric heating.
Both cab seats swivel
70 water and waste water tanks
Swivel cassette toilet, fold-down basin and a separate wall-mounted shower head

Layout similar to the Warwick. Benivan clean simple lines. Warwick has curtains, 3 ring burner, oven as well as microwave and more colour choices.

£18000 more expensive though. We've decided to go for a Benian... so what am I missing? Why is the Warwick so much more expensive? What do get with the Warwick that you don't with the Benivan?

TIA!

I have always looked at it that the real cost of owning a van is the depreciation. The purchase price is somewhat irrelevant, the unknown quantity here is what they are both worth after a couple of years.
Why the Warwick is so much more..... no idea sorry!

Don't know where you got £18k difference in price. From the prices I've just been looking at there is £10k difference. Ok that's bad enough. But it's hard to do a straight comparison. Curtains v blinds, oven& 3 rings v 2 rings and no oven. Gas struts on underbed access. Solar panel v 2 batteries. The list goes on. You need them side by side to physically compare the level of equipment and quality.

Paul - I know it's hard to do a comparison - I was rather hoping a Warwick owner might be able to help. The Benivan quality is good. Everything is quite solid and very well put together. Time will tell of course but as I've said previously, I wasn't overly impressed with the 'vans on the AS stands at the NEC - and we so wanted to be wowed by their campers so we felt we had to have one!

Groundhog - the entry price can also restrict newcomers to the market which is why the purchase price is important. And £18k is quite a buffer when it comes to depreciation. I know AS vans hold their values but I could only buy something that was about 4 years old, with no manufacturers warranty.

I can afford for the Benivan to depriciate quite a bit before I'm in to Warwick territory

It might be that AS use the likes of Benivan / Toleno et al to start to sharpen their pencils.

From the AS website:
Warwick Duo £53,700.00
Premium Pack: £2,500.00
Fiat 150bhp Comfort-Matic engine £4,000.00
Total (before any dealer discount) £60200

Surely the base price is the comparison - Warwick £53k, Benivan £43k.

Then there are the things which aren't immediately apparent such as insulation, build quality, rattles, ease of use and effectiveness of equipment and fittings. Things which will prove their worth, or otherwise, over time. It’s certainly difficult to compare.

I’m a Warwick owner but I don’t think I can help as I have no experience of the Benivan. I’m happy to answer specific questions regarding the Warwick though.

Spinney Motorhomes have unregistered 2018 Warwick at £50k.inc premium pack.

That is a very good price, with the automatic option at £2500 so just £53250... 

I'd be quite cross if I'd just bought one though! The price wasn't moving much when were at the show in October.

What does that do for people selling their nearly new Warwicks?

Narrowed the gap but still over £10k in it.

Personal preference this - we rather liked the simple clean interior of the Benivan.

Again - we've only had a Warwick for a couple of hours but we're struggling to see where the price differences are.

Ignore price, none of these things are remotely cheap!!

So, looking at the Warwick, for example, there are several factors which make it choice 1..............

Width, width is the MOST important dimension for any MH, length is secondary for parking ferries etc, but width is vital, assuming you don't want to just use French motorways and go to campsites with swimming pools etc, width is vital

Also, you need to consider damp and water ingress, PVC are more or less immune to this.

You need a nice big roof for your (essential) solar panel, PVC's are good for that too

Now you have two single beds, no need to climb over the wife to get to the loo, might have been a bit of fun in your twenties, not quite so much in your 50's 60's or 70's!!!

Your call, but we cannot see any possible improvement to our Warwick Duo!!!

Ian - that's what I'm trying to understand. The Benivan is essentially the same as the Warwick - same base anyway so what do you get for the extra hard-earned?

I can see one improvement to the Warwick... how would you feel if there was another £10k in your back pocket?

I still enjoy the climb btw.... except when my tennis elbow kicks in, or my lower back aches, or when my knee starts playing up.... but apart from that...

One thing you havnt mentioned is the back up and the support you get from the dealer.  Just do a search on here and elsewhere to see what peoples experinces are of Marquis. You are in the NW so presume you would be dealing with one of the worst at Preston, personally wouldnt buy a lawnmower off them

Caravan type windows,you can pull them open with your fingers, important to me after owning a bailey and knowing how flimsy they are.

Roli - thanks
 
Yes – support is extremely important, and Marquis do have a perceived poor reputation.
Whether or not this is justified I don’t know having never had personal experience of them – aside from the Sales team.
 
From my research, the reports / reviews are that some dealerships are worse than others, and others on this forum have good and bad reports of all dealerships, including the Preston outlet.
 
I’ve addressed this perception directly and bluntly with the dealer, it’s something they are aware of (they read the forums as well) and it’s something that they are trying hard to improve (they say). I shall certainly feedback their performance as I find it.
 
Roli - where did you get your AS from? New or used? Marquis? Any issues?
 
We’ve decided on what we want. There is no choice as to who we go to. It has to be Marquis.
 
As I understand it – Trigano own pretty much everything – including Autosleeper, Benimar and Marquis… plus loads of others…
 
Windows – good point - identified as an issue already – gone for the lock-m-out handles but only as the passenger side window can open and get taken out by the door. Need to lock this one down so it can never be opened. Ever. Particularly as the children will be taking the thing away…

I'm not sure that this is possible to answer.

For example, my car that is my daily commute, was about £7k used.  It has all the features of my neighbour's car, but his is a different make, and was 3 times the cost.  Both do the same run, in the same weather, in probably the same comfort.  Both have their pros and cons.  But his is three times the cost of mine.  However, I like mine and he likes his.

We love our Sussex Duo (pretty much the same as the Warwick), and wouldnt swap it for the Benivan, even to make a big saving.  We liked the little differences enough to pay the difference in price.  Its got 4 rings and a cooker; worth £10 on its own, no.  It's got sleek secure glass athermic windows; worth £10k on its own, no.  We much prefer the furnishings; worth £10k on its own, no.  So its got pretty much what the Benivan has got, but the differences in total (including the dealer, the support, the style, the looks, the base model, the furnishings, the extras, etc.) meant we bought the Sussex duo and are delighted with it.  Couldnt be happier.  Despite being able to buy other makes and models of vans for less money.  We both loved the van, we could afford it, it came with 12 months full warranty........boom.

The main thing is, that despite protestations to the contrary, very very few people make these purchases solely on facts.  Its not just the head, its the heart.  So buy the one you want, at the price you want, and don't kid yourself that you can compare cox's pippin and granny smiths, and work out what the difference is, and why some like cox's best, and why granny smiths cost more.

Excellently put. Unfortunately Benivans are only available from Marquis whereas the Warwicks can be supplied from any AS dealer (or others if buying used). So if 'the wheelbarrow' wants a Benivan he will have to chance the aftersales service he might or might not get.

PS - very happy with our Sussex as well.

Paulmold wrote:Excellently put. Unfortunately Benivans are only available from Marquis whereas the Warwicks can be supplied from any AS dealer (or others if buying used). So if 'the wheelbarrow' wants a Benivan he will have to chance the aftersales service he might or might not get.

PS - very happy with our Sussex as well.

Very well put Paul. Very pleased with out Warwick Duo and got a £5k reduction when we bought it brand new with all extra packs.

Have seen many other vans with plastic windows, the Duo does look smart with it's black glass.

Marquis! no comment. Excellent after sales service from local Dolphin Motorhomes.

As they say, you pays your money etc.
---------
Richard

Rolyan - thanks for reply. I appreciate your candid response.

It would seem that the choice, for some, is based, to some extent, on emotion. I can imagine that some of this is borne out of the Autosleeper branding. Being fairly new to this, the AS name doesn’t mean that much to me. That said - we had a Symbol, and were very impressed with it - it was old though… bit like me...

Your car analogy - I'm struggling with.

Both campers are based on the Fiat Ducato (or Peugeot equivalent?) - these come in around £35k or so. The bulk of the cost is based on the rolling engine driven chassis, cabin, electrics etc. Im sure an organisation like Trigano can negotiate quite a deal on these but still - a large part of the cost is in the mechanics. 

On that basis, I think we're still comparing peaches with peaches (or Fiat with Fiat, rather than Trabi with BMW) as the rest of the build is brand loyalty, fixtures and fittings and profit.

I have to admit - I do like the look of the glass athermic windows (didn’t know they were called that so thanks).

So back to my original query.

Same base vehicle. Same base functionality / fittings - kitchen, washroom, beds, cupboards, heating and hot water….

Assuming that AS are higher quality (though we didn’t necessarily see this at the NEC) - this additional material cost will be marginal. I suspect the build cost will be the same in terms of time and labour.

So where is the £10k price difference?

I do hope we enjoy ours as much as you very clearly enjoy yours!

So where is the £10k price difference?

I do hope we enjoy ours as much as you very clearly enjoy yours!

The £10k price difference isn’t in the materials. That’s only a small percentage, although I happen to really like the AS furnishings.

With ANY product, the cost is based on materials, brand reputation, brand loyalty, perceptions, meeting your requirements, style, depreciation, fashion, emotions, security, insurance, after sales service, guarantees, reviews, and much more. There is a maximum market value, regardless of quality, and brands position themselves within that spread. This applies to any product, other than completely niche ones that totally dictate the market price.

You appear to be trying to justify the cost based on materials and fittings alone. My car analogy still stands, and I’ll give you a perfect example. When Daewoo first started, the used some of the tooling from the Astra. They were very similar. I bought a new Daewoo, and months later was talking to someone who had bought a new, similar, established, make. He told me his had front fog lights. Mine had them all round. His had front electric windows. Mine had ekectric windows all around. His was a nice engine, but mine was 16 valve.  Etc etc etc.  But his car cost £3k more. Simply because ANY purchase is hardly ever based on the sum of the individual components. 

I still say you should stop trying to understand it based on the cost of fixtures and fittings, accept that nearly all purchases are heavily influenced by the heart, and go for it. I’m sure whatever you get you will enjoy it as much as I and others enjoy ours.  

Find the van you like, buy it and use it. Good luck.

There is a cheaper, and possibly simpler way..............

I bought my Warwick Duo, secondhand and 6 yrs old, just 9700 miles from new.
I am the 3rd owner!
I had a full AA inspection done, which includes an HPI check.
I paid £31k for it, and have added about £2k since.

The point being that I had no teething troubles, no endless return trips to dealer to get it fixed, indeed, all it's had was an emmisions warning light which turned out to be a fuel filter.

When I sold my last MH, I used a dealer who took its description, then visited my home, paid for it on the spot and drove it away, good guy to deal with, no mucking about

I contacted him re the eventual sale of this one in 3 yrs time, mileage circa 40000 and, was quoted circa £25k, seems the way to do it for me!

IanH wrote:There is a cheaper, and possibly simpler way..............

I bought my Warwick Duo, secondhand and 6 yrs old, just 9700 miles from new.
I am the 3rd owner!
I had a full AA inspection done, which includes an HPI check.
I paid £31k for it, and have added about £2k since.

The point being that I had no teething troubles, no endless return trips to dealer to get it fixed, indeed, all it's had was an emmisions warning light which turned out to be a fuel filter.

When I sold my last MH, I used a dealer who took its description, then visited my home, paid for it on the spot and drove it away, good guy to deal with, no mucking about

I contacted him re the eventual sale of this one in 3 yrs time, mileage circa 40000 and, was quoted circa £25k, seems the way to do it for me!

That’s interesting, that matches my story almost exactly.  My Sussex Duo was the same age, same mileage, same number of owners, I did the same checks, had zero problems, and like nearly all motor homes it’s been kept as new.  This forum has helped enormously.

For me, buying used is always the way forward, regardless of the make or model.  Even though it’s obviously the right decision to buy the Autosleepers Warwick/Sussex. 

Sally
X

My story as well. Strange how we all got Sussexes. Mines mileage is higher (40k), very similar price, same age (give or take 6 months). No problems, touch wood. 
No matter what brand, I would never buy new but that's partly due to price but if you could guarantee no problems I'd possibly consider it if money was no object.

The current van was from Spinney whose dealer back up has been very good 
The previous van was from Marquis at Preston!  If it hadn’t been for AS Willersey SC we would have returned the van.   A mate has similar experiences with another brand from them at the same time

Vehicle prices frequently don't make sense. My car is available with two badges, the lowest spec has a price differential of approx. of £1.5k, top spec £2.5k. The badge is the ONLY difference.

My Auto-Sleeper is 20 years old, the interior was by far the best of all similar aged vehicles. Everything worked but a key difference was somewhat intangible, all the others looked so "tired" was the best way I could describe it.

I will also say that I am not blinded by AS reputation. Several jobs I have done on it arose from how it was built in the 1st place although it could be argued that the van has lasted 20 years so why moan? There are however points of quality which were poor the day they were done, the time is irrelevant. For example crimping tools for insulated crimps were available in 1998 but presumably not at AS.

Does the Benivan have single leaf springs?. The Peugeot has doubles. The “air suspension” on the Peugeot chassis is a great advantage. Remote air valve for spare wheel inflation below offside rear bumper. Lots of hidden advantages on the AS.

the wheelbarrow wrote:Hey folks

We've decided to go for a Benian... so what am I missing? Why is the Warwick so much more expensive? What do get with the Warwick that you don't with the Benivan?

TIA!

Did this discussion help in any way?  Are you sticking with Benivan, or re-considering the Warwick Duo?  Are you sticking with Marquis, or re-considering another supplier?

It's always nice to see if the discussion/forum helped in any way, even if it only confirmed your original position.