Trophy won't start

My 1994 VW T4 2.4ltr diesel Trophy won't start without the aid of a squirt of easy start spray. I was just wondering if anyone knows of a garage in the Nottingham area that deals with these vintage vans. Very frustrating just as the season gets underway.

Surely any old school mechaanic can cope with that,  Sorry do not know Nottingham

 A local one man business would be your best bet, large garages are fitters not mechanics.
Best wishes,
Margaret

Virtually guaranteed to be its heater plugs. DO NOT use easystart.
Get a local garage to fit ALL FOUR plugs, not one, 4!!!

Have you looked on the UK vwt4forum for posts on common causes of non-start like that? It's a very good resource for any Transporter owner.

The initial (obvious) first thought would be whether the glow plug system is working and whether they are all functioning. You can check both of those things with just some very basic test equipment.

[Oh, and if you're going to get the glow plugs replaced, you'll need FIVE of them, not FOUR. If you attempt to DIY, be prepared for the threads to gall - it's a very common problem, and it can easily lead to snapping one or more off, unless you are careful.]

we had transits at work back in the eighties, once you use easy start, they will never start again without it, winter or summer.
We had cans of easy start in the cab on a bracket with a tube going through the bulk head and into the air intake and we had mechanics on site.
Thanks for the memory. lol
Pete

Yep.....bin the easystart......although the damage may already be done!

PB

Thanks for all your replies. I won't use easystart anymore and hope no damage has been done. I will try the t4 forum

breakaleg wrote:we had transits at work back in the eighties, once you use easy start, they will never start again without it, winter or summer.
We had cans of easy start in the cab on a bracket with a tube going through the bulk head and into the air intake and we had mechanics on site.
Thanks for the memory. lol
Pete

I've heard this growing 'dependency' of engines on Easy Start mentioned as fact for decades, but never have I seen an explanation which stands up to scrutiny. Can someone enlighten me in this respect?

If I recall correctly, the prime constituent of Easy Start is Ether. This is highly volatile and, in my view, the only negative aspect could be that it acts as a solvent, potentially breaking down lubrication on the cylinder bores if, as often happens, large quantities are squirted into the intake. But once combustion occurs and the engine runs, all traces of ether should be quickly consumed or evaporated, and the oil film should be re-established albeit with a momentary higher levels of bore/piston ring wear.

My theory is that 'dependency' is probably often confused with the engine being faulty or worn and already on it's last legs. Thus, without Easy Start it won't start, not 'cause it's learned to need it, just that it won't start without it, if you know what I mean?

Bartfarst

We had a fleet of twenty vans at the time with a morning start at around 4am the vans (transits) would not start on a cold winter's morning.
Once easy start was used about five times no van would start without it being used at any time winter or summer
Once the van was started in the morning it would start without it being used for the rest of the day and the day ended around 7 pm.
I don't know the science behind it but I do know that if you ran out of easy start and forgot to get another from the stores the night before you had a seriously difficult day trying to catch up.lol

From the manufacturer's website:


How does Bradex Easy Start work? 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] helps engines start by increasing the combustibility of the fuel and the air mixture within the engine. This can help ensure the fuel ignites when the ignition key is turned – getting your vehicle started and back on the road.
To use Bradex Easy Start simply spray the formula into the air intake of the engine whenever your car has problems starting. The treated fuel and air mixture should combine and help the engine to start. It works in petrol or diesel engines, as well as engines in motorhomes, boats, leisure and sports vehicles, agricultural machines and lawnmowers.
Bradex Easy Start can be used multiple times without damaging your engine or having any long term effects – ideal for engines that regularly struggle start in the morning or are particularly temperamental in cold weather.

Back in the day we used lighted newspapers shoved up the air intakes.......mmmm

With easystart i don't know the science either but I would think Bartfast has covered the two most obvious reasons:

"If I recall correctly, the prime constituent of Easy Start is Ether. This is highly volatile and, in my view, the only negative aspect could be that it acts as a solvent, potentially breaking down lubrication on the cylinder bores if, as often happens, large quantities are squirted into the intake. But once combustion occurs and the engine runs, all traces of ether should be quickly consumed or evaporated, and the oil film should be re-established albeit with a momentary higher levels of bore/piston ring wear"

"My theory is that 'dependency' is probably often confused with the engine being faulty or worn and already on it's last legs. Thus, without Easy Start it won't start, not 'cause it's learned to need it, just that it won't start without it, if you know what I mean?"

That's my take on it as well.

PB

We had new vans every three years on contract
We had some ford d series vans as well before deisel was treated for winter use it wasn't uncommon to light a fire under the fuel tank mmmmmmm
Pete

peugeotboxer wrote:Back in the day we used lighted newspapers shoved up the air intakes.......mmmm

...and paraffin-soaked rag, lit and stuffed beneath the inlet manifold!

Don't try this these days - inlet manifolds are now mostly made of plastic!

Bartfarst

Bartfarst wrote:From the manufacturer's website:

How does Bradex Easy Start work? 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] helps engines start by increasing the combustibility of the fuel and the air mixture within the engine. This can help ensure the fuel ignites when the ignition key is turned – getting your vehicle started and back on the road.
To use Bradex Easy Start simply spray the formula into the air intake of the engine whenever your car has problems starting. The treated fuel and air mixture should combine and help the engine to start. It works in petrol or diesel engines, as well as engines in motorhomes, boats, leisure and sports vehicles, agricultural machines and lawnmowers.
Bradex Easy Start can be used multiple times without damaging your engine or having any long term effects – ideal for engines that regularly struggle start in the morning or are particularly temperamental in cold weather.

A Diesel engine is around 25 to 1 compression ratio. Easy Start when used doubles that compression to around 50 to 1. This tends to rock the piston side ways in the bores
which in turn the right angle of the piston rings tend to round off the leading edge, Thus over a period of time the engines compression tends to loose its original compression so this is how the engine gets addictive to using easy start. If you are very unlucky it can some times break  piston rings!!!!.
 
Regards
Gren.

gonromin wrote:
A Diesel engine is around 25 to 1 compression ratio. Easy Start when used doubles that compression to around 50 to 1.

I understand what you're trying to say, but factually that can't be right. The compression ratio is literally determined by the physical dimensions of the piston, combustion chamber, crankshaft and bore. Using Easy Start does not change the physical dimensions of the engine, so it can't change the compression ratio!

I suspect that what you mean is that adding ether vapour not only makes the mixture self-detonate at lower pressures (hence making it easier to start) but also makes the "bang" bigger, and earlier in the compression phase, when it does start. The resulting premature detonation and extra pressure can cause damage, partly because it happens when the engine is unprotected by oil circulation.

I've no doubt there's an element of truth to that, though as Bartfarst and others have said, the underlying reason for continued non-starting is probably wear to the bores, leading to lower compression anyway, plus issues with partly blocked injectors and defective glow plug components. The issue may be worse on Transits than other vehicles, because many Transit diesels (of the Mk2-Mk5 vintage, at least) did not have a glow plug system!

-mojo- wrote:

gonromin wrote:
A Diesel engine is around 25 to 1 compression ratio. Easy Start when used doubles that compression to around 50 to 1.

I understand what you're trying to say, but factually that can't be right. The compression ratio is literally determined by the physical dimensions of the piston, combustion chamber, crankshaft and bore. Using Easy Start does not change the physical dimensions of the engine, so it can't change the compression ratio!

I suspect that what you mean is that adding ether vapour not only makes the mixture self-detonate at lower pressures (hence making it easier to start) but also makes the "bang" bigger, and earlier in the compression phase, when it does start. The resulting premature detonation and extra pressure can cause damage, partly because it happens when the engine is unprotected by oil circulation.

I've no doubt there's an element of truth to that, though as Bartfarst and others have said, the underlying reason for continued non-starting is probably wear to the bores, leading to lower compression anyway, plus issues with partly blocked injectors and defective glow plug components. The issue may be worse on Transits than other vehicles, because many Transit diesels (of the Mk2-Mk5 vintage, at least) did not have a glow plug system!

Hi Mojo,
Perhaps I should have said Easy Start has the effect of doubling the pressure in the cylinder which in turn does effect the rings etc.
I take your point on all worn diesel engines . However my experimental work that I was involved in with Petroleum companies was with all types of new internal combustion engines direct from most manufactures . Get your wallet ready if you have a problem with these newer Diesels!

Gren.

gonromin wrote:Get your wallet ready if you have a problem with these newer Diesels!

I count myself very lucky that I didn't opt for the higher output (biTdi) diesel when I bought my T5. That engine had a significant design fault, and low-mileage users (which motorhome users tend to be) typically won't find out about the problem until the vehicle is out of warranty. It can only be resolved by replacing the engine - at a cost of over £7,000!

I don't think that combustion pressures during the use of Easy Start would be significantly elevated, particularly when compared with the situation where a Diesel is being actually operated to power a vehicle near full load in real life. The combination of high turbo boost, low revs and significant levels of fuel injection will result in elevated combustion pressures (3000psi I saw mentioned) and significant power output: conditions which engines have been specifically designed to cope with. Piston side loads and the resulting piston slap forces/piston cant should also be much more prominent when the engine is working hard.

However when starting, the engine is, in effect, at idle with little or no boost, with minimal fuel injection and zero power output. Adding a little more volatile hydrocarbon will, I suggest, prompt combustion through compression ignition at lower gas temperatures, and this might occur earlier in the combustion cycle,  but it should not cause undue pressure elevation above the regular idle pressures in the combustion chamber. Otherwise, if the combustion pressure were significantly elevated by the introduction of Easy start at idle, more work would be output by the engine and the engine revs would shoot right up.

Bartfarst

I have experienced exactly the same problem as Trophynomads with almost exactly the same engine (VW 2.4D) and it turned out that all the glowplugs had failed. I got a garage to change them as they are extremely difficult to get to.

(There's also the possibility of the (large) fuse that supplies the glowplugs failing, but that was not what happened to me)

I used easy start a few times prior to getting the glowplugs replaced, and I've not experienced any problems since.

I agree with Bartfast - introducing ether into the cylinder to cause a small explosion sounds dramatic, but surely it's exactly what diesel engines are designed to do all day long ?

.

shargrea wrote:introducing ether into the cylinder to cause a small explosion sounds dramatic, but surely it's exactly what diesel engines are designed to do all day long ?

I'm not sure we are going to get consensus on this!

The issue (as I understand it) is not really the size of the explosion - it's the timing.

The normal cycle of a diesel engine involves the fuel being directly injected at exactly the right time, when the piston is at (or very near to) the top of its travel. If you use Easy-Start you are mixing fuel and air outside the engine and drawing it into the cylinder already mixed - so it can ignite as soon as there is high enough pressure - and on a diesel that can be (and is likely to be) early in the compression stage, while the piston is still going upward.

You can probably imagine why this is not good for the engine - under normal running conditions the bearing surfaces are protected by a very thin film of oil, but there will be little oil pressure at engine start.

Exactly the same happened to my 2.4d Trophy last winter. Had 5 new glow plugs put in never had a problem since. The only other advice is to make sure your battery is also tickity boo at all times. I changed mine at glow plug replacement and the difference is amazing. Plus also use your cold start lever and dont try to start until ten seconds after the glow plug lights have gone out.