Priming water system on Kingham 2017 - help!

Trying to get ready to go away this week, previously drained down water system. Filled up tank, opened tap, pump running but no water coming through taps, checked all joints, all appear okay. Opened drain to water heater, only a dribble of water coming out?
Have tried using Whale pump to prime, not working, have checked contacts to whale plug in and no power!
Don’t know what to do next?

Assuming you are referring to the submersible pump in the fresh water tank, it sounds to me like you have the same problem that we, and lots of others have had to endure.

It was taking me at least half an hour to get ours running, with exactly the symptoms you describe.

The immediate solution as recommended by Mark at A/S Service Centre, is to fill the tank and drive round for a couple of miles then try again. It is reputed to fix the problem - temporarily at least. You should (??) then have no further problem until you drain down again.

As a long term solution the only option is to have the submersible pump removed and replaced with a good old Shurflo. (There's lots on here about it.) 

Quite why A/S had to fix the pumping system when it wasn't busted escapes me, but many members can now testify that the Shurflo is a far, far better option. One local member (friend of ours) had the replacement done last Thursday as he was so fed up with your problem, plus he had to keep adjusting the pressure valve whenever he came off hook up or the reverse.

The Shurflo just works every time - but regrettably you won't get A/S to install one F.O.C. unless the submersible is absolutely knackered. While it can still be coaxed eventually into life it is considered (by them) to be fit for purpose!

Hope this is useful.

Hi thanks for that, have tried filling tank and driving around, still no water. Can hear pump spinning it sounds like it’s cavitating and just not pumping!

I find with ours ensure all the taps are open whilst filling, wait until l the tank is full before operating the pump, if the pump cavitates turning on and off the quickly two or three times gets it working. Failing that if you can apply suction to one open tap with the pump running, maybe that would get it working?

Mel C wrote:Hi thanks for that, have tried filling tank and driving around, still no water. Can hear pump spinning it sounds like it’s cavitating and just not pumping!

One member (forget who) had an unusual fault when the impeller came loose, so the pump motor was chuntering away but the impeller wasn't doing anything.

Sorry for the doom and gloom, but it begins to sound as if you'll have to have a Shurflo fitted. It shouldn't be necessary, and I think all of us who have had them fitted resented having to spend the money - but it was certainly worth it in terms of convenience and peace of mind.

This could have happened on the first day of a month in France. Quilter has had the same problem during most of their winter in Spain!!!

There is a history of this type of problem mentioned on previous posts supposedly relating to an air lock? Suggest only half filling the tank then opening a hot tap first which purges the air out of the boiler. When the water flows correctly, then open a cold tap to same effect. Interestingly the mention of nothing draining from boiler, driving around, switching on and off and applying suction to a tap, likely points towards air in the system. Don't think it can be any water component breakdown with such a new van? Regards

Thanks Paramedic for your thoughts, have retried draining down , partially filling and driving, still no success. Will try A/S in the morning see what they suggest!

Toffee wrote:I find with ours ensure all the taps are open whilst filling, wait until l the tank is full before operating the pump, if the pump cavitates turning on and off the quickly two or three times gets it working. Failing that if you can apply suction to one open tap with the pump running, maybe that would get it working?

I use both these methods on mine too. Filling the tank with ALL the taps open (hot and cold) really helps.


Then I also pulse the pump a few times on and off quickly, seems to help no end 

What sort of cost are we talking of to have Shurflo pump fitted?

I enquired recently about the cost of having the Shurflo fitted at Willersey.  It was approx. £250 but I can't remember whether that was excluding VAT.

I don't know about a Kingham, but I think most people are paying around £200 - £250. It's quite a fiddly job and the tank has to be dropped, apart from the plumbing and wiring. I believe some vans are easier to do than others - therefore varying the labour charges.

If you go to Willersey for the fitting (not sure if it can be done elsewhere?) Mark will discuss it with you to decide on the best position to fit the Shurflo, and his lads will remove the submersible and install a proper pickup point.

Not cheap, and as I said before it shouldn't be necessary, but I think everyone who has had it done would agree that it's well worth while. The worse scenario is the submersible giving up the ghost when on holiday abroad, as I doubt if many owners could (or would be willing to) drop the tank to replace it.

In the far less likely event of a Shurflo going wrong it can be changed by removing four screws and two 12 volt electrical connections - plus a new one can be purchased almost anywhere in Europe.

Your decision of course, and I'm not trying to persuade you. The facts as reported by many members will probably do that! 

I run the pump for a few seconds after draining in the hope that clears any water trapped in the pump. I don't want that to freeze and damage the pump.
Just what I do, not sure if it's best practice?

I think your van is still under warranty.
If I have a similar problem then I will make them fix it under warranty and look at the Shurflo option if it goes wrong after the warrranty expires.  

Or maybe see if you can negotiate a discount on the Shurflo as your van is still under warranty and they're going to have to fit a new whale submersible.

Peter Brown wrote:I'm sure faults occur but I have camped and chatted with literally hundreds of owners of vans with this whale pump in the tank and none has mentioned a problem charging the system when refilling with water.  Is it just a case of gaining experience using the van?

Not in my case Peter.

I can't speak for others of course but before I had ours changed I tried every combination I could think of, plus the several suggestions received from members on here.

It was even more perplexing when I was never able to identify what I did to persuade the pump to start working. It just suddenly started pumping at random, sometimes within a couple of minutes, but often it took up to half an hour of fiddling to get it going.

Perhaps the most illuminating comment came from Mark last Thursday, when a friend (on this forum) had a Shurflo fitted. Mark said, "We are doing quite a lot of these now." I'm not even sure it is a fault with the pumps as such, because they can nearly always be coaxed into life - eventually - which is why A/S won't replace them under warranty.


My own theory, for which I have no evidence at all, is that the submersible pumps in some (probably not all) vans are laying flat on the floor of the tank, rather than upright as they would be when filling from a container. They almost never give any problem in the latter usage, and they are exactly the same pumps.

When laying flat in an empty tank however, after having been purged of water during a previous drain down, maybe they cannot fully self prime. If the water level within the pump itself can rise only half way up a horizontal impeller, it isn't going to do much pumping!

For easier visualisation I imagine the pump as the size of a baked beans tin, with a small hole in the centre of the top and bottom. The top hole will be connected to the pipework, and the bottom hole will be the water intake. If it is laying on its side, it will create its own airlock when the water level has risen to half fill it, and has covered both of the holes. The top half of its (imaginary) impeller will be high and dry, so it will spin like mad but fail to pump any water.

Mel before spending hundreds on a Shurflo check out the whale system post in coachbuilt forum . Whale are a great company to deal with and seem genuinely interested in helping . They have been on offering contact by mail or phone so I suggest giving them a call.  

Thanks Kaspian will give that a try.

Like Gromit, we had problems with our whale pump, trying to get rid of air in the system. One way as suggested by Mark (as mentioned in Gromits post) is to have the freshwater tank half full and to rock the water by moving the vehicle back and forth two or three times to shake up the flow. However if the whale pump doesn't pump after a longish journey then, as Dave has suggested, get it change by AS to a Shurflo pump. We had ours changed last March and it works perfectly every time with no worries. As it was out of warranty it cost us £250 which included slightly moving the hab battery to install and dropping the freshwater tank to remove the old crap Whale pump (jubilee clip very rusty!)
We were at AS last week for our Habitation check, and whilst chatting to Mark we spoke about our Shurflo working well and he told us they had fitted three new Shurflo pumps (to replace the Whale pump) in the last three weeks!

Mark’s team did a great job fitting our new pump sympathetically between the hab battery and Truma boiler. It is also very quiet and gives a better flow through the taps. 

Our thanks go to Dave(Gromit) for all his help and advice at the time, when we were considering replacing the temperamental whale pump.

Hope this helps. Not good to have this problem on a newish van though!

Pete

After making appointment called into A/S at Willersley. Mark was very helpful, changed pressure valve and pump in tank all now appears fine. Also attended to another couple of minor items for us, very happy their actions.

Thanks for the feedback Mel - always useful to others.

Did Mark do it under warranty, and if not would you mind saying how much it cost? I'm certain others would be interested. (I assume you couldn't get your pump to work at all?)

As has been noted on another thread, only a fairly small minority of owners have significant problems with their pump, but the fact that they are few in number doesn't make it any the less inconvenient and worrying for them!

Not unlike water ingress. Most people don't suffer from it, but if you do it's no joke!!

On the way to A/S checked periodically to see if it had managed to prime, eventually after about 90 miles it blew through a lot of air and started to work!, however pump was slightly noisier than it had been.
Explained fully to Mark, he said he would investigate, he agreed was not how should be and replaced pressure adjustment valve and pump under warranty, now appears to be okay and pump virtually silent!

Good result then Mel. Can't fault Mark and his team can you! 

Happy ending  


In general, can we take our vans direct to AS for warranty issues? (and bypass the supplying dealer)

My Kingham is going to AS for its first habitation on 27th April.
I’ve asked them to fit a shurflo as i’m sick of trying to adjust the pressure switch every time we aren’t on hookup. We usually resort to switching it on and off on the control panel.
If as many people are getting these fitted as Mark says you’d think AS would be looking at putting them in new vans?