Warwick xl heating ducts

Our 2017 Warwick xl heating at rear vents gets really warm but the front one makes a cold draft i spoke to auto sleeper about this the reply was change plpes round to put the front one into a top duct as they blow warmer i dont want to finish up with a rear vent blowing cold has anyone changed the plpes around

I have a 2017 AS Fairford and ours is the same.  The two front are on a smaller diameter pipe which then connects to the larger vents as that is the only way they can be fed through to the front due to enclosure access but it makes them pretty much useless since all the hot air will go to the back where there is less constriction.   Its a shame they are not fed under the van.

You can make sure the smaller diameter pipes are connected to the top of the heater (x4 -  2 top 2 bottom) as the two top ones are the hottest apparently

I have found that with the shower door open we can regulate the van pretty well but the two front vents are pointless I think

Hope this helps

I have Warwick Duo and all 4 vents blow hot. I mention this as I think the Duo has the same Truma Combi 6E heater. (I have winter pack which means heater is upgraded to 6E)
Come to think of it, I have never checked which vent is connected to which outlet. But it demonstrates it should be possible to get 4 warm outlets.

it would be interesting to find out if the OP is running his combi on electric or gas, as the Combi 6 differs only in its power output when using gas or mixed modes....the electric side is identical at 900/1800w.
Don, do you get warm air to all 4 vents when using electric or gas or mixed? 
Also, are Don and the OP using the same fan speeds (eco/high) as this, too, makes a big difference.

Same problems with our 2016 WXL, I will be investigating and changing a few things after this weekend as we are away at last.

I have purchased a 90 deg truma bend and the intention is to swop the shower 60mm(top right and shortest length) with the front outlet (bottom left and longest length) on the boiler and fit a conical adapter to the 90 deg bend 60mm outlet to the 30m tube therefore reducing the pipe length by approx >1 to 1.5mtr.

I have an anemometer and temp gauges so will take some more notes(again) prior to the change. Currently the front runs at 30degC at ~2mtrs/sec flow and it comes out at the boiler at ~60mtrs/sec and bloody hot so loss is in pipe length, reduction in tubing diameter and the route it takes.

Hope this makes sense, if it works great if not then not etc.

Moan Mode = ON
I have been side tracked from this due to the microwave breaking loose(not shelf, Mod done fixed), heater temps with the icon flashing it doesn't get up too the set temp >20degC(not thermostat) and the door window deciding it wanted to leak all inside(booked into AS 2nd March for a new window, thanks Mark), and the crap steering of the Boxer with Peugeot loosening the front sub frame and twisting it to correct it and its still not 100%.
Moan Mode = OFF (for now)

Peter

I forgot winter pack fitted with combi 6e boiler.

My Warwick Duo, in addition to many of its peers had only 3 of the 4 outlets from the heater populated, this has been the subject of a few modification articles.
Mine now has all 4 populated, the 4th being where the fwd rhs leg for the bed is situated, like others I too moved the leg to stop the hot air hitting it.

If you are getting air, even cold, from all 4 of your outlets (AS must have finally changed this, I see yours is 2017 (Don)) then all 4 must be connected.

I have found the one to the shower (ours is not an XL) being partly disconnected under the LHS bed, interestingly I found this by seeing an increase in the outside air temp on my weather station, the OAT sensor is in good contact with the LH wheel arch!!

Have you tried closing the vent "throttles", the air dampers on the outlets, to the 3 which are working and see if the cold one then becomes warm?

a couple of questions....
a) have you tried the heating on gas? the combi 6 will be no different to the combi 4 if always run on electric...., in gas mode it will supply 6kw as opposed to 4kw, and in mixed mode will supply upto 5.8kw (mix2) as opposed to 3.8kw.
b) i see you are planning to swap over rear outlets, I've read up quite a lot of Combi user manuals and technical forum discussion and have never come across any comment relating to any of the outlets being different to any other.....except on this forum the other day where a comment said the bottom two were hotter.....(or the other way round). does anyone have any documentation supporting this?

I have tried both in tests but will redo and try and produce a table with flows etc using different fan settings and modes of operation which hopefully will give others some info.

I think due to the combi 6e and others having a centrifugal fan the same flow or a very small increase from of each outlet regardless of the damper on one or more outlets being used, I did do some checks on that but need to confirm what I saw. I will also check the top/bottom temperatures as well but from what I saw and know no difference in temp was noted from the outlet of the boiler, at the actual cabin outlets yes but this is due to the pipe length and the path it takes.

I'm just trying to balance the system so less heat comes out of the shower and more to the front which I believe is the diameter of the pipe(30mm) and the length of it to the front, so if I can reduce the length of pipe to the front then the flow will increase and the temp will be also hotter. If I increase the shower length then the flow will decrease and temp will be lower, in theory only doing some testing will prove this.

In some tests I did using the conical adapter and reducing the curve from its current position to a smoother 180 deg turn the flow increased to 4mtrs/sec so doubling the current flow, currently the front boiler outlet does a 270deg turn just to get to the back of the cupboard and another 180deg at the front.

Corrugated piping is a big resister to air flow.

herby660 wrote:I have a 2017 AS Fairford and ours is the same.  The two front are on a smaller diameter pipe which then connects to the larger vents as that is the only way they can be fed through to the front due to enclosure access but it makes them pretty much useless since all the hot air will go to the back where there is less constriction.   Its a shame they are not fed under the van.

You can make sure the smaller diameter pipes are connected to the top of the heater (x4 -  2 top 2 bottom) as the two top ones are the hottest apparently

I have found that with the shower door open we can regulate the van pretty well but the two front vents are pointless I think

Hope this helps

I also have a 2017 Fairford and our front vents are good and do blow out nice warm air ( no mods done to the pipework ). I have found that it really does depend how you use the heating system at this time of year, and in probably any of the model range. If on EHU try gas and electric together and you should get good blown hot air from the front, it works for okay us. If not on EHU then gas on the high setting also works very well I have found. Also have you tried closing the rear vent flaps and shower vent flap a bit to direct more air to the front vents.

Hi Mindhyg
Thanks for your reply I will try that to see if it helps. I've been using electric mostly on EHU. The front vents definately have lower air flow though? I would really appreciate any experience you have

GP1069 wrote:I have tried both in tests but will redo and try and produce a table with flows etc using different fan settings and modes of operation which hopefully will give others some info.

I think due to the combi 6e and others having a centrifugal fan the same flow or a very small increase from of each outlet regardless of the damper on one or more outlets being used, I did do some checks on that but need to confirm what I saw. I will also check the top/bottom temperatures as well but from what I saw and know no difference in temp was noted from the outlet of the boiler, at the actual cabin outlets yes but this is due to the pipe length and the path it takes.

I'm just trying to balance the system so less heat comes out of the shower and more to the front which I believe is the diameter of the pipe(30mm) and the length of it to the front, so if I can reduce the length of pipe to the front then the flow will increase and the temp will be also hotter. If I increase the shower length then the flow will decrease and temp will be lower, in theory only doing some testing will prove this.

In some tests I did using the conical adapter and reducing the curve from its current position to a smoother 180 deg turn the flow increased to 4mtrs/sec so doubling the current flow, currently the front boiler outlet does a 270deg turn just to get to the back of the cupboard and another 180deg at the front.

Corrugated piping is a big resister to air flow.

interesting post....
looking at the WXL layout and some Google pics, i can see the gas outlet for the Truma is (appears to be) under the offside (roght hand) seat bench, towards the front of it?
i can see the washroom is adjacent and will therefore be pretty warm. Does the vent in there have a 'flap' to regulate the heat flow? if so, why couldnt ypu just close this to cool the washroom and add 'back pressure' to the other three boiler outlets? i wouldnt change any routing just to make the room less hot if the flap can do the same job....
are there any other heater outlets on the offside, say at the fwd end of the washroom?
are there any heater outlets on the nearside? if so, how does AS route the pipework across the van, under a false floor in the lounge?...or even under the van....
the combi is a very powerful heater and with four main outlets (each which can be spurred if necessary) you should be able to adheive venting at all four corners of the van....
assuming all four outlets are connected (why wouldnt they be...)  have you traced where each pipe run goes and what venting each is responsible for....
i could see/envisage one outlet (say) providing a couple of vents under the offside seat box, another (as you say) keeping the washroom warm......where do the other runs go to and what vents do they support..
the key to a good Combi install is trying to place the unit as central as possible to even up the pipe lengths, but with some layouts, this isnt always possiible..
good luck.

herby660 wrote:Hi Mindhyg
Thanks for your reply I will try that to see if it helps. I've been using electric mostly on EHU. The front vents definately have lower air flow though? I would  really appreciate any experience you have

It's okay on EHU mostly in Spring and Autumn, and that's all i use then, but if away in winter i use it on in dual fuel mode IE leccy and gas together. It's a bit like your central heating at home in that the more you turn it up the more powerful it is. It's easy to expect too much from 2kw and then be disappointed, after all it cannot furnace blast heat out of one small 2/3 inch front vent, but it should work better than what you state and efficiently. Also try turning up the fan speed on the panel to an acceptable level. I'm sure that if you experiment a bit there will be no need for drastic pipework alteration and you will be happy. I had the Alde radiator system in my last MH, and oh boy, that system was seriously lacking heat at the front. I have also found that A/S seem to have taken note of all the other problems they have had with their other PVC's models over the years and have used their newest model the Fairford to put them right ie no microwaves falling out, no cupboard lockers falling down, sliding door blinds fixed in properly and no leaks from windows etc. 

Drifting off subject - my brother in law bought new a Kemerton last summer and the problems he has had are amazing. The latest being the front step, which has managed to over ride the motor and jam in the out position. You really don't expect the problems he has had on a 50k purchase. 

Anyway keep posting and let us know how you get on and also might bump into you on your travels as you are not that far from me. What colour is your van.

Mindhyg wrote:

herby660 wrote:Hi Mindhyg
Thanks for your reply I will try that to see if it helps. I've been using electric mostly on EHU. The front vents definately have lower air flow though? I would  really appreciate any experience you have

It's okay on EHU mostly in Spring and Autumn, and that's all i use then, but if away in winter i use it on in dual fuel mode IE leccy and gas together. It's a bit like your central heating at home in that the more you turn it up the more powerful it is. It's easy to expect too much from 2kw and then be disappointed, after all it cannot furnace blast heat out of one small 2/3 inch front vent, but it should work better than what you state and efficiently. Also try turning up the fan speed on the panel to an acceptable level. I'm sure that if you experiment a bit there will be no need for drastic pipework alteration and you will be happy. I had the Alde radiator system in my last MH, and oh boy, that system was seriously lacking heat at the front. I have also found that A/S seem to have taken note of all the other problems they have had with their other PVC's models over the years and have used their newest model the Fairford to put them right ie no microwaves falling out, no cupboard lockers falling down, sliding door blinds fixed in properly and no leaks from windows etc. 

Drifting off subject - my brother in law bought new a Kemerton last summer and the problems he has had are amazing. The latest being the front step, which has managed to over ride the motor and jam in the out position. You really don't expect the problems he has had on a 50k purchase. 

Anyway keep posting and let us know how you get on and also might bump into you on your travels as you are not that far from me. What colour is your van.

That was so kind of you to respond and many thanks for that advice , that makes perfect sense to me now I think about it.   My van is silver. I bought in one day after the motorhome show.  It had just come into stock and liked it instantly.  I have a bike rack mounted on the back.  Just invested in a Silverscreen to help keep the front half warm.  Its a wonderful van

Spent 2 hours changing pipes around shorted front pipe moved to top duct moved rear pipe to bottom duct tried it on all three settings didn't see any real gain a little better heat I think the main problem is pipe size .tried closing vents a little no gain with blow.on front vent.

where do each of the four pipe runs go, and what vents does each service?

Hi Chris. May I ask What MH you are posting about here is it a Carthago Compactline or Auto Sleeper model??

Hi Everyone
     one of the problems with the heating ducts is heatloss ,has anyone tried insulating them using,the silverfoil/bubblewrap material you can get for water/central pipes?
regards
Alan

The problem with the Warwick XL is due to the way the forward vent is fed. It comes off the heater the same size is the other vents but it is then reduced to about a 1 inch pipe. I have tried shutting off the other 3 outlets and putting the fan high but there is still very little flow or heat, it's just down to poor design.

gemdeco wrote:Hi Everyone
     one of the problems with the heating ducts is heatloss ,has anyone tried insulating them using,the silverfoil/bubblewrap material you can get for water/central pipes?
regards
Alan

Hello, Little Bookham! Chessington here! Not to sure about insulating the pipe ducts, imo not worth it and probably a pain in the neck to do. Posters are talking about poor or no heat flow out of vent. Usually if the system is used as it should be it should be okay. As I said before in earlier post use gas and leccy together, a good fan setting, adjust the rear vents and bobs your uncle. 
Will look out for you when out and about  

Pete

Mindhyg wrote:Hi Chris. May I ask What MH you are posting about here is it a Carthago Compactline or Auto Sleeper model??

Hi M, yes i have a Carthago (with Combi 6E) so i know a bit about how the heating system works, also (on the back of these queries) ive had a close look at the Kingham heating (amongst other AS at the local dealer) and the obvious thing is that insufficient space has been allowed to pass full size pipework to the forward vents.
it would have been easy to raise (say) a fridge to allow a pipe to pass under, rather than just go for a (simpler, cheaper, less effective) narrow bore pipe.
my own van has 11 heating 'outlets' from a Combi 6e, including a 'necklace' surrounding the bed, and an under dashboard outlet which keeps the windscreen clear....
ok, our van has a double floor which allows the heating pipes to run unobstructed to the various vent points. The thing is, a heating system should be 'designed in' to the overall product, not just tacked on as an after thought...
there are many As vans that dont have outlets in the fwd part of the van....ok. if on ehu and can plug in a fan heater (if you have a conveniently placed socket)...but when on a cold aire and using gas, you need the heat to be transferred to all corners of the van...dont you?

I installed an extension pipe and outlet to heat a shower room. It involved a Y junction and a full bore run of pipe (insulated) under the fridge to the shower room wall. The result was it turned the shower room into a sauna!  It obviously needed control so I made and fitted a butterfly valve at the Y junction which gave full control from zero to full flow at either exit. I did have the considerable advantage that the heater (Eberspacher D2) and the piping runs started with very easy access under the offside side bench/bunk. Keith

ive heard mention of some not being able to control the heat from a specific outlet...
arent all outlets terminated like this with Butterfly flap on the end? every installation we've had (four) have used these which help restict heat output when close to the heater...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yes BB ( & hello from the CC forum ! )   the outlets on a Warwick XL are as per picture ( except for the front one which is smaller and has no flap ) .. BUT... and its a massive BUT ;-) 

There are 4 outlets :
One to the washroom, and one to the front of the rear bed box, both are 65mm dia corrugated pipes, both less than 0.5meters in length. Both as hot as you like.
A third to the rear of the bed box, also 65mm dia pipe about 1.5 meters in length, also as hot as you like.

The fourth, and this is the problem one, starts in 65mm, but is soon reduced in diameter to about 45mm, it is routed behind the shower tray / vanity unit in the washroom, under the thetford toilet, under the drivers seat, and eventually appears in the low step into the cab, total length probably over 3 meters, ability to access it, virtually nil, heat loss along its length, virtually total.
What happens if you close the flaps on the shorter pipes is that the flaps get so hot that you think they may melt, and the increase in temperature at the problem step vent increases in temperature by about 3 deg C as virtually all of the heat is lost on the way.

Bad design by AS effectively.  

PS to add insult to injury, the washroom, being small, is over heated, the small pipe should have been routed to there. I guess the small pipe to the step vent is as big as could be fitted in, may as well have left it out for all the good it is. I usually just leave the washroom door open so some of the excess heat escapes to the cab area.... best of a bad job really.

J, hi.....
when i was 'musing' over the WXL layout and how i envisaged the heating, i gussed one piperun would go to the offside seatbox, and another would run to the washroom, with both areas being hot, as you say..
however, i would have thought that the same pipe into the offside seat box could easily support two outlets, one (say) at the front of the box and one perhaps a little further back....its not manadatory that one pipe only services one outlet.....as i said above, we have 11 'outlets' from our four pipe runs..
so, if this easy mod were made, this would free up one piperun to be redirected to the fwd part of the van.
obviously, there are aspects of the layout which make routing pipework fwd a bit tricky...
however, Id be looking at a couple of mods (perhaps with AS help?).
firstly, could the pipe under the toilet be shortened and exit in the fwd washroom wall (rather than going on further into the cab...) so it would still be 'aimed' at warming the cab area? im gussing the pipe bore would need to remain small to traverse the shower etc....however, if shorter, might make a difference to the heat in the front offside area...
Further, if a change was made in the bed box as I described, you know have a 'spare' piperun to try and direct some heat to the front of the van, perhaps on the nearside...
if the floor is not raised and there is no false floor to get the pipe across to the nearside, it 'could' be made to exit the van underneath and reappear under the nearside bench and then run under/behind the fridge and kitchen units and provide an outlet at the fwd end of the cooker housing...
as i say, just some musings but it seems that there is too much heat under the seat box (two pipes there is overkill) and not a lot moving towards the fwd part of the van.
the thing is, the planning for the heating ducts should be commensutate with the design and placement of furniture, with space to allow pipework into all parts of the van...
im sure it would be possible to get a mod like this done, if the owner feels its worth it....
if one is always on ehu and a fan heater can provide the missig warmth, thats fine, but we arent always on ehu and having half the van cold osnt good.
anyway, just musings but might be worth investigating for all year round travellers who arent always on ehu..
good luck...

As we are on EHU 99% of the time any modfications are really just far more trouble than they are worth. The inside of the van, including the cab is only about 5m, and warmth drifts to the front eventually. The prospect of removing the Thetord toilet and the plinth it is mounted on is far too risky a plan for me, quite apart from any warranty infringement. Bear in mind we also have a metal van floor covered with ply... Under the van there are few completely "empty" bits, and the risk of potential damage to pipes etc underneath is high.  I did, at one point consider fitting a simple grill behind the drivers seat to allow heat to escape from bathroom to the cab area, but thought better of it. The cab being cool is only a problem in the colder months, and as leaving the washroom door partially open warms the cab anyway, it's a simple ( and cheap ) solution, but thanks for your ideas ..