Safefill bottle in a Symbol (2000) locker

Happy Friday to you.

I was wondering if there any Symbol owners who have invested in a Safefill gas bottle, and whether it fits in the gas locker?

I have a 2000 reg Symbol called Bert (Bertram on Sundays), and when I bought him a few months ago he came with a 3.9kg calor bottle in his gas locker.

I've not used lots of gas, but I'm researching possible replacements for when the calor runs out.

I've had a look at the Safefill website where they have the dimensions of the bottles, but after a bit of time with a tape measure I'm still not totally sure whether one would fit.

I thought I'd ask here first before I go to try one out, just in case someone can save me a journey :)

Ta

Richard

If you just want to have more gas available, you should be able to get a 6kg Calor and a 3.9kg Calor bottle in your locker. You need to weigh up the pay back time of the purchase of a Safefill system over Calor refills.


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Morning Paul, thanks for the reply.

I've been weighing up various factors, and I reckon Safefill is the way I want to go.

1) The Safefill bottles are lighter than Calor, which will help keep my payload down.
2) You can see how much gas you have left and top it up whenever you find a filling station, so I'd avoid having to carry an empty Calor bottle around until I found a Calor dealer
3) I only have a partially empty 3.9kg bottle at the moment. If I wanted to get a refilled 3.9kg and a new 6kg, it'd cost £78.39, according to the Calor website. That's about half the price of Safefill at the outset anyway, and the subsequent refills would be more expensive.
4) Once I've bought a Safefill bottle, it's rated for at least 10 years, and I'll be able to swap it out to a different van in the future should I decide to change.

I've seen in my research that people have cited problems finding places to refill, but there are also those who say they're fine getting them refilled, so it's hard to judge either way.
I also think that they're such a good idea, with the lightness and ability to refill, I wonder whether some of the problems with refilling might be solved if more people were to take the plunge and invest in the system, thus increasing awareness/exposure.

I hope (eventually) to full time in my van as well, which means I'll probably get through a fair bit of gas- if one has a van that's only used in the summer, then a refillable system will take ages to recoup costs. But in a van that's used a lot, the payback time will be a lot less.

Any road, those are my thoughts, I'd be interested to hear other opinions of course.

And more specifically, whether a Safefill bottle will even fit in my locker- if it doesn't, I spose the above is moot!

You can change a 3.9 for a 6 at most dealers, Also, ask at your local council tip, some have empty cylinders and will let you take one for a fiver (a lot don't).

That's food for thought Paul 300358, I'll look into the local tips/recycling centres.

Still though, I see the benefit of a refillable system- cheaper in the long run, not having to carry two bottles in case one runs out. Safefill stood out because of the weight and being able to see remaining gas levels, but I've also considered Gaslow and GAS IT- I'd be intrigued to hear about any others too.

I've found this with a quick Google too- http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/10kg-24-5-litres-light-composite-gas-cylinder-shell/?utm_medium=googleshopping&utm_source=bc&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqpjA1LvS2AIVCgDTCh1_hQsnEAQYAiABEgLfdPD_BwE

So there's various refillable options, which appeal more than traditional exchange bottle systems.

Perhaps this topic might turn more to the merits/demerits of refillable lpg bottles? Though I'd still like to hear from any Symbol owners with a Safefill bottle, if there are any!

Calor produced a lightweight bottle specially for caravanners and Motorhomes in order to save weight. These were/are known as Calorlite bottles. Unfortunately this year they have been discontinued due to the bottles having a higher than acceptable number of damaged and unsafe bottles. They have assured users that a replacement will be developed hopefully sometime in 2018. These of course will not be refillable ones but standard exchange bottles.

My 2005 Symbol's gas locker door is only 260 mm wide all the Safefill bottles are 305 mm dia so they wouldn't fit.

crosgor wrote:My 2005 Symbol's gas locker door is only 260 mm wide all the Safefill bottles are 305 mm dia so they wouldn't fit.

Cheers for that Crosgor- that's a shame. 

I tried to get a sense of whether it would fit with a tape measure, but was finding it hard to visualise. It seems I may have to look into other refillable bottles that are a bit narrower/thinner.

Out of interest, what gas bottle do you use in your van?

notwithstanding the cost issue....(only you will know if its worth it...and remember, any decent refillable will have a residual value that often gets forgotten in the calculations...) here are two points to consider...

if you have to have a refillible cylinder (as opposed to an underslung tank) then a Gaslow (or gasit) cylinder with a proper filler is refillable virtually anywhere there is LPG....bringing a stand alone cylinder to a forecourt still has its isues despite a huge drive to publicise the safety of proper systems like Safefill...

the 2nd point is about size....an 11kg gaslow cost just a few pounds more than a 6kg one but only needs refilling half as often. if you are struggling for locker space and have a budget for a refillable system of some sort, id go for a fixed underslung tank which can be a decent size...this also frees up thenlocker for other stuff and gets over the aprehension of some garages to allow ypu to fill a stand alone bottle.

also, whichever system you go for will allow filling all over Europe (with adaptors) which isnt possible with Calor...if you are going long terming, this might be something to throw into the mix...

good luck..

Paulmold wrote:Calor produced a lightweight bottle specially for caravanners and Motorhomes in order to save weight. These were/are known as Calorlite bottles. Unfortunately this year they have been discontinued due to the bottles having a higher than acceptable number of damaged and unsafe bottles. They have assured users that a replacement will be developed hopefully sometime in 2018. These of course will not be refillable ones but standard exchange bottles.

The Calorlite name had cropped up in my reading, but I hadn't looked into them in much depth. I feel a reticence towards buying exchange bottles- they just don't seem very convenient, or like value for money. 

I've heard of some MHers, for example, having to exchange partially full bottles before setting out on a trip abroad to ensure that they have enough gas, as apparently there's a paucity of Calor exchange points outside of the UK.

I appreciate the input though- for some people, especially those who don't get through a lot of gas, I think exchange systems would be simpler and more affordable.

bolero boy wrote:if you are struggling for locker space and have a budget for a refillable system of some sort, id go for a fixed underslung tank which can be a decent size...

Bolero boy, your points about the merits of a refillable system mirror my thinking. It has the potential to be much more flexible than an exchange bottle system.

Regarding an underslung tank, I have considered it briefly- perhaps it's something I need to think on more. My concerns with fitting a tank and filling system though would be with a lack of modularity, ie. once it's fitted it's there to stay. If I convert a van in the future, which I reckon is a good possibility, I like the idea that I could remove a refillable gas bottle from the Symbol with minimal fuss, and I'd then be able to sell on the Symbol in an unchanged condition in case somebody else wanted to go back to dropping a Calor bottle in the locker. 
I assume that with an underslung tank system, I'd need to have a filler point fitted, and if I changed vans I'd either have to leave the tank system on the Symbol, or have it removed by a professional and have a hole left in the side of the van.


Everyone's input is thoroughly interesting, and very informative- definitely helping to refine my plans.

it depends on where ypu see the 'value' of a refillable system....
for us its not having to exchange a partially full bottle, the convenience of topping up when we get fuel, but most of all, no worries about gas when we travel abroad, which we do extensively.

im lucky, my van has a large gas locker and i could fit 2x11 kg Gaslow (i only have one and the other space is for an emergency spanish bottle.....) but if i had a small locker, i wouldnt let this drive my desire to have a decent refillable tank....so i would definitely go for an underslung tank.

ok, i might have to sell it as part of any onward sale, but add it as a sensible extra in the sales blurb....

perhaps your next van would have a bigger locker.... 
once youve gone 'refillable' youll wonder why you didnt do it earlier...

of course, if you're just going to sit on a CC site with an orange cable....

That is lucky, bolero boy, oh to have a gas locker that size! XD
Do you remove your Gaslow bottle to refill it, or does it stay sitting in the locker? How do you find filling it?

Just found this- https://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t1200-underslung-autogas-tank-on-symbol

Seems Mikemelson has the same model of van as me, and has been told that there's no room for an underslung tank.

Yet there's also this https://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t3062-underfloor-lpg-tanks-for-motorhome

Where looks like dogseal has the same van, but has an underslung fitted.

The plot thickens.

Even so, I reckon my preference is probably still for a bottle rather than a fitted tank- wondering if anyone with a refillable bottle has any input?

i have a filler point in the skirt adjacent to the locker, below and just to the right, hope you can see in these pictures ive just taken....a bit dark out...lol..

in the second photo, you can see the filler pipe coming in bottom right, up the side of the locker and into the filler hole in the top of the cylinder.

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Richard
 
If your 2000 Symbol’s gas-locker’s entrance has the same 260mm width as crosgor’s 2005 model’s, you will be unable to use any of the present Safefill bottles due to their 305mm diameter.
 
A 260mm-wide entrance implies that the locker will have been designed to accept UK-norm 7kg/6kg metal canisters and, if you want to go down the refillable-bottle route, there are several 6kg-capacity user-refillable metal containers that should go through the doorway.
 
Gaslow R67 cylinders are probably the best choice at the moment as they have good safety features and an accurate contents-level gauge (particularly important if you planned to carry just a single refillable cylinder and no back-up bottle).
 
Gaslow R67 bottles are available as “Direct Fill”, where the filling method is somewhat similar to a Safefill bottle’s (except the Gaslow container does not need to be disconnected/reconnected at the filling stage).
  
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Or one can purchase a complete ‘kit’ that permits installation of the type of remote filling-point fitted to bolero boy’s Carthago motorhome.

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Although more expensive, a refillable system that includes a remote filling-point simplifies the refilling procedure and should avoid potential arguments with LPG service-station attendants.
 
Fitting an under-floor fixed tank would be expensive and would be an unnecessary extravagance unless one were desperate to free up the existing gas-locker for some other purpose.
 
The 10kg composite cylinder you referred to earlier
 
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is 310mm-diameter, so would not fit through a 260mm-wide aperture. It also lacks the integrated safety features (no 80%-fill cut-off valve and no non-return valve on inlet/outlet) found on Safefill composite bottles. As the advert says , the “Gas bottle is dedicated for cooking, heating and other appliances where the vapour outtake of the gas is needed such as BBQ or patio”
 
The 10kg bottle would be owned by the user, so should be legal to refill using a suitable adapter - however LPG service-station attendants might well take umbrage if they realised what was being done. The product is not really aimed at motorhomes/caravans and, although the bottle could safely be refilled, the user would need to take extra care.

some very good points by Symbolic above, and yes, an underslung tank would be an extravagence, but just raising awareness of all options...
its a shame that the locker is so small, but as said, probably designed for the prevailing cylinder size of the uk market, rather than the larger continental (13kg) ones..
so, where does this leave you? 
for example, a single bottle R67 kit (incl filler and all Continental adaptors) from Outdoorbits (online and at Exmouth) is £305 for a rubber hosed version....upgrade to stainless steel hoses and the set costs £325.
although the bottle is 'small', the thing with a refillable is that it can be topped up at anytime...
of you go down this route i would have a look at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and check out LPG availability close to you...or on major routes in any direction.
that way, you can always top up wherever you are going on holiday.
the site also has satnav POI files for the whole of europe..
good luck.

I should have highlighted above how the age of Richard’s Symbol, and that it has a Calor 3.9kg bottle in its gas-locker, will probably affect the installation of a metal user-refillable canister.
 
In 2000 (when Richard’s Symbol was registered) UK-built motorhomes had a gas system that involved a 28mbar regulated gas-pressure when butane gas was used and a 37mbar regulated pressure when propane gas was employed. The motorhome’s gas-fuelled kitchen and heating appliances were manufactured to run efficiently and safely at 28mbar (butane) or 37mbar (propane) and regulation was performed by the appropriate 28mbar or 37mbar gas-regulator attached directly to the gas-bottle’s outlet.
 
A Calor 3.9kg gas-bottle contains propane and has a ‘female’ outlet that accepts a 37mbar regulator having a ‘male’ left-hand-threaded POL connector. So Richard’s Symbol probably has a 37mbar regulator attached directly to his Calor 3.9kg bottle’s outlet.
 
In the UK the ‘autogas’ that is put in refillable bottles is almost 100% propane. Thus Richard’s Symbol’s gas system should be provided with autogas at 37mbar pressure.
 
However, metal refillable bottles have a left-hand-threaded ‘male’ outlet (referred to as 21.8LH) of the type used on Calor 4.5kg butane canisters. Consequently an adapter is needed to permit a 37mbar regulator appropriate for a Calor 3.9kg canister to be directly connected to a metal refillable bottle’s outlet.
 
The type of adapter required is shown here
 
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(Note: the adapter is fairly widely available on-line and the asking-prices vary. Shop around for the cheapest deal...)

Just another view, when on a motor home show site, I had run out of gas, no problem Calor man came round in his truck with a new bottle, which I exchanged for,

I prefer the Calor bottle, JMHO, would not go to refillable, the under tanks as I understand it do
not completely fill. gas cuts off before hand.  plus the hassle of switching off underneath when going on ferries. not much fun crawling around if wet.

I do not have this problem, gas is already turned off when travelling.I like simple and less hassle,  

I now carry  two 6kg bottles , when one empties change over and replace empty when convenient.
Is it true that some fridges are not to be run on the autogas? another thing   to consider.
As is the norm ,everyone has the system that suits them the best.

Good luck which ever system you go for.
Best wishes,
Margaret

No-one has to crawl underneath to turn off gas , ferry are quite happy to just have valves under sink turned off. I certainly couldn't get at the tank as it's across the van right in the centre and I have a separate valve where pipe enters van so can turn off there. The fridge thing is just a thread I started to highlight the stupidity of Dometic handbooks, there is no alternative to Autogas for those with underslung tanks.
As you say, each to their own.

Thank you Paul.
regards,
Margaret

Paulmold wrote:No-one has to crawl underneath to turn off gas , ferry are quite happy to just have valves under sink turned off.

Unless you are unlucky enough to get a jobsworth Paul. 

We've only had one, and he insisted that the gas be turned off at the external tap. His reasoning was actually quite sensible. Their surveillance cameras can catch anyone daft enough to turn the gas back on again before boarding (or even on the train if it's Eurotunnel) whereas they have no idea if or when the internal taps are turned on again after the check.

This is our solution, which also makes it dead easy to switch off before driving, and while at home so the automatic fridge doesn't turn itself on and drain the tank!! It's just a loop of tubing with an isolating tap, just under the skirt within easy reach without crawling about in muddy puddles.

Mr Grommit,
I think Paul is right. I think the van is designed by AS to be Channel Tunnel safe with just the internal taps. Though your solution is nice, I dont think it is necessary.
If I get the jobsworth you did then I would show him this section of the manual (and I would not mention an external tap).


I have taken this van through  the channel tunnel 6 times, 3 trips, once each way. All they ever ask is "have you turned your gas off" and I reply with one word "yes". They then wave me through.

AutoSleepyDon wrote:Mr Grommit,
I think Paul is right. I think the van is designed by AS to be Channel Tunnel safe with just the internal taps.

Oh, I don't disagree, but the chap we encountered was adamant that it must be seen to be safe - by their surveillance cameras.

If we hadn't had the little tap (in the photo) I'm certain I would have had to crawl underneath and wrestle with the cover on the tank. I couldn't really have argued much either, as his logic was impeccable.

Having been through on many other occasions without a problem I think it depends on who you get, and whether he's still in a strop from an earlier encounter. 

haveringhussar wrote:

crosgor wrote:My 2005 Symbol's gas locker door is only 260 mm wide all the Safefill bottles are 305 mm dia so they wouldn't fit.

Cheers for that Crosgor- that's a shame. 

I tried to get a sense of whether it would fit with a tape measure, but was finding it hard to visualise. It seems I may have to look into other refillable bottles that are a bit narrower/thinner.

Out of interest, what gas bottle do you use in your van?

6kg and 3.9Kg propane fit in together , snugly. Use the large one first then the small one until you can replace the 6 Kg one. It's best to weigh them when  full ( luggage scales) then you can work out the tare weight yourself as it's often painted over, this then will give you an accurate guide to consumption.

My Montana gas locker will take the 9.5 litre Safefill ..... just[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The potential snag with motorhome gas-lockers that are sized to accept (at maximum) 7kg/6kg Calor bottles does not arise when the vehicle is used in the UK - where Calor canisters are readily available - but abroad where Calor bottles are not marketed and where gas-bottles are generally significantly larger. For example, no French gas-bottle would go through a 260mm-wide gas-locker doorway.

If a person’s motorcaravanning is limited to the UK (as I presume Margaret’s is) there are understandable reasons for staying with a Calor-bottle system. But if a motorhome with a small gas-locker/locker-doorway is to be used for other than short trips abroad, a refillable system becomes much more attractive.

The cheapest new 6kg refillable bottle will cost over £100, plus the cost of additional hoses and labour charges if you do not install the system yourself. Motorcaravanning just in the UK and mostly using campsites with 230V hook-ups will keep gas usage down and, in such circumstances, it may take a considerable time to recoup the overall cost of swapping from Calor to a refillable system. Obviously with a refillable system it’s not necessary to lug heavy Calor bottles about: conversely it will be necessary to find and drive to an LPG service-station to refill the gas system.

So before ‘going refillable’ it would be sensible to weigh the pros and cons.