Symbol starting problem

My 2001 Symbol starter will not turn over the engine.  I have checked the starter and it seems to be working fine!  I have checked the earth straps and they are making good contact.  The battery is brand new as I thought this was the problem during the recent cold weather, but alas no.  Not every time, but most times I try to start, the starter tries to turn, but barely at all, or no response at all. 
Any Ideas anyone??

I have recently experienced starting problems with the starter barely turning over.
The culprit was an earth lead on the back of the gearbox.
I know you have checked, but it may be worth a second look. The braiding to the chassis fixing was perished.

New lead and the engine flies over.

PB

Pedique,

Have you checked the battery volts off load and, for example, on load with the headlights on?

If starting with the headlights on, does their brightness dip significantly?

Is there a good, strong clunk from the solenoid on the starter motor as it throws the starter gear into engagement with the flywheel?

If you recently changed the battery, are you certain that the post clamps are fully down/engaged with the battery posts prior to tightening? When trying to start the engine, is there any audible fizzing/sparking from either battery post? Are any of the battery clamps exhibiting corrosion/oxidation/blue gunge?

The earth strap may still be at fault: I attended to a neighbour's Jag last year which had had a clutch change, and even though the earth strap was in good nick, oxide between terminal and, in this case, aluminium bell housing had been disturbed and was affecting continuity and messing the whole vehicle intermittently. To check for a poor earth, drop a jump lead from the negative battery post to an electrically-sound earth point on the engine and try starting. With the Jag I only did this after, at the client's insistence, I changed the starter motor which, in this case was a bloomin' awful and ultimately unnecessary job.

Hope this helps.

Bartfarst

Thanks Folks, I will treat myself to a new earth strap and give it another try.
I will let you know how I get on.

Pedique wrote:Thanks Folks, I will treat myself to a new earth strap and give it another try.
I will let you know how I get on.

Try the trick with the jump lead first though. If that doesn't improve the situation then your earth strap isn't the problem.

Bartfarst

I can't believe it, I spent hours trying to sort this problem.  With your advice I bought a new earth lead, cleaned the battery to body lead and gave the body a good scrub with some course emery paper.  I then went to remove the gearbox earth strap and the nut sheared off with corrosion.  I found another fixing point attached the new lead and the original earth lead after giving it a good scrub with emery.
Key in the ignition and started immediately.  Can't believe it!!  Being a doubtful sort of guy turned off, and started again, and again, and again!

Thank you all for your help, you are all truly wonderful.

New problem since this successful conclusion.  Leisure battery is not active anymore in the habitation area now, can't be much, I will have a look tomorrow.

Pedique wrote:I can't believe it, I spent hours trying to sort this problem.  With your advice I bought a new earth lead, cleaned the battery to body lead and gave the body a good scrub with some course emery paper.  I then went to remove the gearbox earth strap and the nut sheared off with corrosion.  I found another fixing point attached the new lead and the original earth lead after giving it a good scrub with emery.
Key in the ignition and started immediately.  Can't believe it!!  Being a doubtful sort of guy turned off, and started again, and again, and again!

Thank you all for your help, you are all truly wonderful.

Glad that you found the problem!

I've always thought that a wet (with oil) earth strap was a good earth strap. Corrosion between differing materials over time is a significant issue in our older vans. Remember your average 'white van' has a relatively short design life, most of which are worn-out in a few years through greater rates of use. The manufacturers' test them flat-out round a track, not static on the drive for a decade or more!

Bartfarst

Pedique wrote:New problem since this successful conclusion.  Leisure battery is not active anymore in the habitation area now, can't be much, I will have a look tomorrow.

Try plugging in your main lead and see if the Zig unit is putting volts into the battery. I do this by turning-on the 12V feed, switch on one of the sockets, and stick the probes of your multimeter into the slots and read the volts. Should be 13.8V.

Bartfarst

Hi Bartfarst,

All internal electrics work when mains lead plugged in.  It's powerless on battery only!
on the Zig read out it says battery full.

So with the mains charger off, try measuring the voltage as I suggested above (i) with nothing draining any current and (ii) with a good electrical load applied, such as the pump running. Does the voltage nosedive from (i) to (ii)? If so, a cell in the leisure battery may have gone. If you haven't got a multimeter then you can monitor the battery indicator on the Zig unit, but if the simple LEDs then it won't be as effective in diagnosing the problem.

Bartfarst

Thanks, I will try your suggestions in the daylight tomorrow.
Best wishes

Check the leisure battery fuse, its under the drivers seat on my van, don't know where it is on later ones.

Frank

Oh Dear,


I have tested all the fuses, under the drivers seat, behind the engine battery and also the relays under the drivers seat, all seem to be working fine. I also removed the zig control to make sure there were no internal micro fuses, (there isn't).  The 12v system works fine with the mains lead plugged in but turn off the mains and the 12v goes dead, with a few flashes in the lights as it loses power! 
The fridge still works fine with engine running.

My 2001 Hymer had 2 50A fuses in the circuit bewteen the vehicle battery and the leisure battery.  One was by the vehicle battery and the other near the charger.  If the vehicle battery went down then on trying to start one of those 50A fuses would blow as the starter motor tried to take current from the leisure battery.  Then the alternator could not charge the leisure battery and, if I remember properly, if it was the fuse by the leisure battery that had blown the leisure battery could not power anything on the leisure side - but the charger could.  Similarly the charger could not charge either battery.  The fridge has a different feed direct from a relay powered by the alternator.
I don't know how your van is wired but it might have a similar system.

OK everyone I have solved the problem with the 12 volt circuit in the habitation area.
Very simple after much searching for duff fuses or broken relays, all tested and are fine.
However whilst trying to sort out the water ingress over the engine I discovered a broken lead to the negative terminal of the engine battery, joined this back together and hey presto all the 12 volt system in the back came alive.  Thought you all might like to know as this could be useful for someone else with the same problem.  Not sure why an earth lead to the engine battery makes a difference to the leisure battery but maybe its something to do with the relay.  Any way works well now.

Thanks to you all, for your help.

I think I recall the lead in question. I'd guess that the conductors broke off at the AS crimped spade connection, yes?

As I may have said previously I have always been highly critical of AS's use of connectors suitable only for protected (interior) environments in demanding under-bonnet applications. The worst example of this is/was the use of a 'Scotchlock' connector to pick up the ignition warning lamp signal for the split charge relay circuit. This typically let water into the broken insulation which then corroded and broke the copper conductors. Automotive electrical wiring demands rigour, forethought and the correct choice of materials if we're not to be left at the side of the road. Rant over!

Anyway, very pleased that you got it sorted.

Bartfarst