Efoy system

Hi All,

My first time on here.  I'm in the process of buying a 2012 Worcester and having been a solar panel supporter for the past 10+ years I thought this time around I would switch over to the Efoy charger.  Does anyone have any experience of using this device with Auto-Sleepers?

You need methanol which is not nice to handle and expensive.  You get slightly more charge per day than solar panels in UK but the further south you go the less will be the difference.
All in all when I looked a solar panel seemed a much better bet but this is getting to be less true economically.  For me the fuel was a strong minus factor.  If you want to use a lot of 12V electricity it might be worth it.

Wow - electricity would have to be really really important to justify something like that. If I'm looking at the right product line, they start at over £2k and go up to nearly £5k, and a single 5l bottle of fuel costs £30!

That would seem to put it in a completely different league than solar, where you can get a decent panel and controller for £200, with zero ongoing cost.

In my book, definitely one for the "early adopter" with an excessively heavy wallet!

Thanks for the feedback.  I went with solar last time around and found it to work very well for us but to be really useful (in our case) we needed and had just under 450W on the roof.  We like our creature comforts like coffee and tea and didn't like using all the gas to boil a kettle.  That's not possible with the Worcester I guess so just looking at alternatives.  I wouldn't be happy with a single panel of 100W or so as the weather in winter even in the South of France wouldn't give me enough to remain self sufficient.

We tend to wild camp for up to 6 weeks a time and sometimes its not practical to keep starting up the engine and even with 450W and 800AH of battery we struggled in winter.  We don't need a TV sat dish, nor tow a small car so maybe spending £2.5K on an Efoy system may not be out of wack.  At this time I'm only exploring options.  Another possibility may be one of those 12 volt generators such as Self Energy EG 20 or a combination of solar and MPPT regulator and a B2B charger.  Lots of options

Vennwood wrote:We like our creature comforts like coffee and tea and didn't like using all the gas to boil a kettle.

A cylinder of gas is about as cost-effective and compact a source of energy as you can get for heating (space heating or water heating). I wouldn't even think about using solar energy or battery power to boil a kettle - it simply does not make sense when you look at the storage capacity of a battery or array of batteries. If you think you might run out of gas then it makes more sense (to me) to carry a spare cylinder or two than to consider installing expensive, cutting edge fuel cell technology.

But of course, if you have loads of cash to throw at the problem and money is no object, you can solve it any way you like!

I'd put the efoy system among the list of anachronisms of motorhoming. Like spending a fortune on a van but trying to avoid the relatively low pitch charges and towing a car about with a big van when you could have a better car, more space and arguably less cost pulling a caravan with a car. Using an additional type of fuel to produce electricity to carry out heating that could be more easily and cheaply done directly by a fuel you already have on board seems to me to be reinventing the wheel.

Perhaps the money would be better spent on a 1kW Honda suitcase generator?

First off well done on joining the Worcester owners club, we love ours and can't think of any other van we would have at the moment even if money were absolutely no object! No experience of Efoy so cannot comment but what you say is true, we have 130w solar on ours and it really wouldn't keep you off grid for very long without driving.

Have also used a Honda generator ( very quiet) but it does mean lugging it around and of course carrying fuel for it.

Happy to compare Worcester notes with you at any time just drop me a PM!

-mojo- wrote:A cylinder of gas is about as cost-effective and compact a source of energy as you can get for heating (space heating or water heating). I wouldn't even think about using solar energy or battery power to boil a kettle - it simply does not make sense when you look at the storage capacity of a battery or array of batteries.

Have to agree with this. Have you got (or would consider) refillable lpg cylinders like Gas-It?

That would probably be the better approach as you can then use the gas for cooking etc no problem and just top up at a local LPG station whenever needed.

I always feel part of the joy of the motorhome/campers is that you have to work around things like this. To have all the creature comforts I'd just use that money to book posh hotels ;)

steamdrivenandy wrote:I'd put the efoy system among the list of anachronisms of motorhoming. Like spending a fortune on a van but trying to avoid the relatively low pitch charges and towing a car about with a big van when you could have a better car, more space and arguably less cost pulling a caravan with a car. Using an additional type of fuel to produce electricity to carry out heating that could be more easily and cheaply done directly by a fuel you already have on board seems to me to be reinventing the wheel.

Its not about "trying to avoid relatively low pitch charges" - if you have spent any time in say the south of France or Italy in the winter you would understand that the majority of campsites are closed so you don't have the luxury of pitching up and connecting to EHU etc. Its more about payload and available space.

A few years ago the VOSA carried out spot checks on motorhomes and weighed them with some 83% of all stopped were OVERWEIGHT.  That was the reason I sold our first MH as there was no way I could get under the max plated weight.  Sadly there are hundreds of MH's - many made here in UK that have a very marginal payload.  It would be relatively easy even with many of the AS models to overload your campers.  Insurance company's these days are just looking at ways of rejecting claims. I wonder how many folk have actually weighed their campers when fully loaded ready to set off on holiday?    Look at the 2012 AS Devon standard with Auto box with only 200kg payload now add in the wife, food, bike rack and a couple of bikes, deck chairs or even a BBQ - you do the maths.

I was insured for a number of years with the Caravan Club insurance services and was horrified to discover that they did not insure campers fitted with Solar panels - hopefully that has changed by now.

Might be of interest to you Vennwood, we always weigh before heading off into the boonies and the last trip to Europe fully loaded to the gunnels, full tanks plus an extra 40 litres of water, we weighed in at 3820kgs, 60 kgs under max weight. We do not have bike racks or a towbar.

Like you we wild camp and  totally get the benefit of an efoy system, for us at the moment we do not do enough to warrant the cost but in the future who knows.

Looks like the views are a bit negative on the Efoy system - but if you go that route, would be interested to hear your views on it.

I have heard people say that the hydrogen fuel cell (which this is with methanol as a carrier) could be a good addition to electric cars, since the fuel cell can quietly boost battery charge if parked somewhere with no access to hook up.

Yes views do seem a bit negative but sadly not expressed by people that have owned or tried efoy.  The criticism appears mainly on cost (or envy)  I have come across quite a few camper owners that have installed them and all been very impressed.  Most move them from camper to camper as its very easily done.  While the canisters of methanol are pricey I haven't come across anyone yet that has moaned about the price.  I agree if you mainly use campsites and have access to EHU then its a bit pointless.  

We visit our family in the South of France and all the campsites close by the end of September until April so its impossible for us to stay there in winter without using the Aires (and they charge almost the same as the local campsite at €18 per night as opposed to the campsites €23.  They have no EHU though and while some of our fellow campers do use generators its regarded as unsociable to run a genny for 3 or 4 hours a day.

Hi groundhog - thanks for the info on weight - very useful.  We do carry one electric bike and one ordinary bike so have ordered both tow bar and bike rack.  We need the bikes as the Aire or campsite is some 5 km away from the family and we are getting too old to hike it every day.  I would be very interested in hearing of anything above normal that you carry that makes up your weight.  We are keen BBQ fans and pondering where we can store it during our travels.

Noggin wrote:Looks like the views are a bit negative on the Efoy system - but if you go that route, would be interested to hear your views on it.

I have heard people say that the hydrogen fuel cell (which this is with methanol as a carrier) could be a good addition to electric cars, since the fuel cell can quietly boost battery charge if parked somewhere with no access to hook up.

If I end up going that route I'll do a review on my findings and let you know

Vennwood wrote:even with 450W and 800AH of battery we struggled in winter.

Vennwood wrote:there was no way I could get under the max plated weight

I suspect that if you try to head towards a solution where you use electrical power for everything, you are likely to end up with payload problems. By my rough reckoning, 450W of solar panels and 800AH of batteries is going to take up maybe 180 kilos of your payload?

When I'm off hookup, I save the output from my solar panel for things where I have no alternative, so it's used to power the fridge, the lighting (sometimes supplemented with a gas mantle light which also generates useful heat) and the tech stuff (mifi, tablet and phone charging). The heating runs off diesel from the van's fuel tank, and hot water and cooking from gas. If you don't like using gas then you can get a diesel-fired cooking hob. They are relatively expensive, but still only around half the price of the cheapest fuel cell installation.

At some time in the future, fuel cells may get to a position where prices drop enough for them to sit alongside solar as a cost-effective way to generate electric power, but at current pricing they are simply too costly to consider unless you have lots of spare cash sloshing about.

-mojo- wrote:
When I'm off hookup, I save the output from my solar panel for things where I have no alternative, so it's used to power the fridge, the lighting (sometimes supplemented with a gas mantle light which also generates useful heat) and the tech stuff (mifi, tablet and phone charging). The heating runs off diesel from the van's fuel tank, and hot water and cooking from gas. If you don't like using gas then you can get a diesel-fired cooking hob. They are relatively expensive, but still only around half the price of the cheapest fuel cell installation.

At some time in the future, fuel cells may get to a position where prices drop enough for them to sit alongside solar as a cost-effective way to generate electric power, but at current pricing they are simply too costly to consider unless you have lots of spare cash sloshing about.

Payload wasn't an issue with our Flair as we had 1500kg to play with but agree it wouldn't be a solution for many - I can't remember the weight of the panels but must have been over 50kgs for all 4 panels.  The batteries however were a different story 3 x 265AH with each battery weighing 95kg.  Our heating was gas and in winter we used quite a lot however by using solar for kettle toaster and laptop, phones etc. we remained self sufficient.  I realise that with the Worcester we have to compromise not only on payload but also on storage and until we take delivery I can only theorise and look at options.  Which is why I asked the question about peoples experiences.

Vennwood wrote:Which is why I asked the question about peoples experiences.

Yes, but you were asking for people's experiences of Efoy eight years ago, weren't you?

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/30-parts-accessories/34989-efoy-verses-self-energy-eg-20-a.html

It doesn't look to me like the cost/benefit equation has changed much, if at all, in the intervening eight years!

I was interested in the various sources of energy a while ago, and looked into all of them. All were rejected except for a combination of refillable gas and solar panels. It works for us, but we don't do much off grid winter camping so it may not be as suitable for you.

I'm not sure people's experiences count for much when considering something as expensive as Efoy. After all, who is going to say it's not the best invention since sliced bread when they have spent all that cash!!! Human nature isn't like that!!

If it's the only satisfactory solution to your needs, then get one - but if there are other viable alternatives I'd think you would want to delve deeply into those before committing that amount of cash. Several have been suggested, and a combination of two or more might also work for you.

Dave

-mojo- wrote:

Vennwood wrote:Which is why I asked the question about peoples experiences.

Yes, but you were asking for people's experiences of Efoy eight years ago, weren't you?

It doesn't look to me like the cost/benefit equation has changed much, if at all, in the intervening eight years!

Not quite the same though as 8 years ago efoy was in its infancy and few people had them.  Also getting hold of methanol was an issue with lack of sales outlets and concerns over shipping etc. Nobody was able to offer any long term experiences back then however I had forgotten about that thread - thanks for digging it out.  Now I'm revisiting the situation as you say its a costly item and I want to be sure.      As Gromit says there are other options so its nice to get feedback on all of them

If it helps, you also asked about Efoy in late 2009, and got some pretty good answers too:

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/30-parts-accessories/59650-efoy-economics.html

Plus it ~looks~ like the products are fairly comprehensively described on your blog/website?

http://www.vennwood.co.uk/?page_id=2713

Vennwood, I will PM you.

-mojo- wrote:If it helps, you also asked about Efoy in late 2009, and got some pretty good answers too:

Plus it ~looks~ like the products are fairly comprehensively described on your blog/website?

Apart from the MHF post links being the same and my comments outlining efoy options on our blog were made in 2008 I still say a lot has changed in 8 years and I would have hoped that someone would have had experience of operating efoy during that time.  I take it you don't - right?

No, but I can do some maths.

On costs, for fuel alone, ignoring the upfront £2.5k to buy and install for the smallest system:

To boil 1 litre of water at 1kW takes 9 minutes. This is approx 0.15 kWh.

Fuel consumption as stated on the Efoy website is a nominal 0.9l per kWh, which gives a fuel consumption of 0.135l to replace that amount of energy.

At £30/5l, this gives a cost to boil 1l of water - ignoring the efficiency losses you will get in an inverter if you use a mains kettle - of just over £0.80.

If we assume a conservative 25% loss in the system, that gives a cost - in fuel alone, not accounting for the cost of the hardware itself - of roughly 25p per cup of coffee (or tea if you prefer). Does that help at all?

I can do a rough guesstimate of the cost to heat water for a shower, but it's only very rough. Say you use 5l of water at 40 degrees - that's five times the quantity but only a quarter the energy per litre - roughly. So maybe £1 per shower, not allowing for losses?

Edit: I should add some info on time: The Comfort 80 at full tilt can generate 3.33 Ah per hour. A very rough calculation suggests that it will have to run continuously for around 4.5 hours to put back what you take out of the system by boiling 1l of water.

Second edit: here's the correct link to your 2009 question/answer session on Efoy: http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/30-parts-accessories/59650-efoy-economics.html

Third edit: I guess £1-1.25 a shower is not so bad, really - but you do of course have to take some account of the initial cost of the equipment. Realistically most people would probably assume that they would get an arbitrary number of showers in the lifetime of the equipment (100 showers, say), so unless you use it a ~lot~, this aspect tends to swamp the fuel cost!

Here are a few perhaps more useful numbers which show some comparative figures between methanol and propane:

Cost per kWh (for reference, mains electricity is around £0.16):

Methanol/fuel cell: - £4.50
Propane - £0.60

Energy density:

A litre of methanol yields 1.1kWh
A litre of propane yields 7kWh

And in terms that can be easily visualised, a "typical" propane installation with one 3.9l Calor and one 3.9l backup cylinder would need 50 litres of methanol fuel to be carried for the equivalent energy capacity. Bigger cylinders make the case for gas more attractive, but they are a pain to shift about - though a big underslung tank and a 3.9l backup could be the best of both worlds.

In weight terms, this equates to roughly 20 kilos for gas, and 50 kilos for methanol (assuming that packaging takes the weight up to around 1 kilo per litre).

Good post mojo.

Raises the question, so why can't we buy a...Oh, wait a second:

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2014/01/24/new-enerday-fuel-cell/

Now, that might be worth having.