Engine identification and ignition problems

Hi all, we are still having problems with the electrics/ignition.
It ran beautifully from Liverpool to MK then cut out and hasn't fired since.
There is a pathetic spark but not enough to fire.
There is a weak spark going into the distributor but nothing coming out. The battery is excellent. Mick has reset the points, changed the capacitor(condenser), fitted a diffent coil and fitted a new distributor cap.  HT leads look almost new. There is an imobiliser switch and the electrics have been butchered - no surprise given the age of the vehicle.
Should it have a ballast resistor and bypass?
To help with using the various manuals (Haynes Renault 18 and Russek Trafic) he could do with positively identifying the engine. 
Logbook says T1200, 1400 engine but it looks like a 1645. The front grill is flat.
We can't find an engine number.
Any help will be much appreciated!

Hi Not got any info on your engine.Sorry.
However if you were driving and it suddenly stopped i would suspect a bad connection or a short to earth .
Was this in the rain?
Is the lead to the coil checked through.?
You appeared to have changed likely components in the system.
Do you have a meter to check voltages?
Hope this helps
Regards

Micky

Mick has a meter but what should the voltages be? Manuals don't say.
It wasn't raining by the way.

This extract off the RTMR website may help identify engine..

I believe that the RV50 was based on the earlier "bull nosed" Trafic with the 1647cc or 1397cc petrol engine whereas the Rimini was virtually the same van but with the later "flat grill" type body and the 1721cc OHC engine. Some later Riminis had the 2165 cc petrol or the 2068cc diesel engine

i would strongly suspect the coil.because they rarely fail.we often overlook them.
when they start to fail,the internal circuit can become weak or fail due to overheating,as the unit cools back,the circuit restores itself.
so the fault can be there then not there.
they can of course fail completely.there is not much difference with a coil from vehicle to vehicle.it should be possible to borrow one with similar
values to prove condition of coil before you invest in new.
                                                                                    regards jack

Hi Jack, I understand he changed the coil.
regards

Mike

thanks mike.i tried to late to cancel the post,i'll get some new glasses
                                                                                                      jack

loosecoverqueen wrote:Mick has a meter but what should the voltages be? Manuals don't say.
It wasn't raining by the way.

If its a 12 volt system i would expect 12 volts on the LT side of the coil.
What about the lead from the coil to the distributor ?
This weak spark is it the same at all the plugs?
I don't expect its all leads U/S at the same time.But i would have changed them as they are cheap.

Hope this helps

Micky

narrow escape wrote:thanks mike.i tried to late to cancel the post,i'll get some new glasses
                                                                                                      jack

Me as well ,Also memory fade.


Micky

The OP states there is a weak spark going into the distributor but none coming out, makes sense that there's nothing coming out if the voltage into the centre connection is weak. 

It's very possible the engine should have a ballast resistor wire feeding the coil. If that's the case then the wire to the coil will have a specified resistance and the coil would run around 7/9 volts. The coil would have a second feed to the + connection which would be battery voltage and supplied from the starter solenoid connection. When the ignition key is turned to the "start" position the 7 volt coil get fed by 12 volts to boost the starting voltage during the starting phase.

The Renault expert is Boxerman, might be worth contacting him for info.

Many thanks Dandywarhol and others. We will resume work on Tuesday as we have a funeral to go to tomorrow. Will post results when we have some - maybe someone else can benefit from all this too.
Judy&Mick

dandywarhol wrote:The OP states there is a weak spark going into the distributor but none coming out, makes sense that there's nothing coming out if the voltage into the centre connection is weak. 

It's very possible the engine should have a ballast resistor wire feeding the coil. If that's the case then the wire to the coil will have a specified resistance and the coil would run around 7/9 volts. The coil would have a second feed to the + connection which would be battery voltage and supplied from the starter solenoid connection. When the ignition key is turned to the "start" position the 7 volt coil get fed by 12 volts to boost the starting voltage during the starting phase.

The Renault expert is Boxerman, might be worth contacting him for info.

Thats a good idea Dadywarhol. I agree with what you say. Where I may differ is what happened when he was going along?

I am relying on an old memory from engineering college 60+ years ago.

Regards

Micky

Paulmold wrote:I believe that the RV50 was based on the earlier "bull nosed" Trafic with the 1647cc or 1397cc petrol engine whereas the Rimini was virtually the same van but with the later "flat grill" type body and the 1721cc OHC engine. Some later Riminis had the 2165 cc petrol or the 2068cc diesel engine

I wrote that!
If the O.P. can post a clear photo of the engine, I'll see if I can tell what it is.
The 1400 has a steel timing chain cover, the 1647 has an alloy one, the top part of which is cast into the cylinder head. The distributor on the 1647 goes through the cylinder head, not to the side of it.
The carb is on the LHS on the 1400 and the RHS on the 1647 looking from the front, the distributors are on the opposite side to the carb on both engines.
Ballast resistor? some had and some hadn't apparently. how many thin wires do you have on your starter motor solenoid? and what is the voltage at the coil with just the ign switched on and nothing running?.

Points should be set by dwell not gap - the distributor cams sometimes wear unevenly. Once you get it running I would advise you to fit a transistor assisted unit, I've had good results with these :[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] on various vehicles.

Frank

If it is supposed to be a ballast coil and it's been replaced with a 12v coil then the secondary voltage would be weak

Hi all, we have had an incredibly busy 2 weeks with a funeral, pension meetings, and a ski injury on Hemel indoor slope but are now back.
Boxerman - I have posted the addresses for pics on Photobucket. It's new to us so if they aren't there or you can't see them let me know and we'll try again! Mick says the engine looks like a 1397 but seems to be wired in a different firing order from the Haynes Renault 18 manual pics - there is a pic of the page in the "Trafic engine" album. CORRECTION - it is the same after all!
It did run smoothly all the way from Liverpool to MK though before cutting out.

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Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed light on all this!

Definitely a 1400.

At what point did it start playing up, before you got it home, the day after or ......?
What did you do to it between it running OK and not running at all?
Did you change, adjust, modify anything before it started misbehaving?

Frank

EDIT:
What is the blue & white thing above the place where your fridge should be?

boxerman wrote:
What is the blue & white thing above the place where your fridge should be?

I was wondering that too!

Hi, we collected it from the seller in Liverpool at lunchtime on the Saturday. Starting her up wasn't easy as the seller's kids had fiddled with the imobiliser switch! Once going we headed straight for home. We stopped after 20 miles or so to fill up with petrol. She started up again fine and we continued down the M6, then round the eastern side of the Bham motorway system and onto the M1. Running smoothly, no warning lights, no juddering - then just before MK she cut out as if there was no petrol. Lights worked, battery fine. Rac guy confirmed fuel was getting through, checked for spark and there was none. He suggested a new rotor arm and distributor cap. Rac recovered us home to Tring. On Rac advice Mick put in a new distributor cap and capacitor(condenser)  but Euro Car Parts had difficulty identifying the distributor to supply the cap. On 2nd attempt, got one that fitted. Still can't identify the rotor arm to replace it but it looks ok. He has also reset the points by distance and tried an old (VW) coil. All of the above were tried one at a time and in combination but none have made the slightest difference. There is a spark but it is too weak to be effective. It will jump about 1/4" from the coil HT lead to metalwork but doesn't seem to be enough to make it through the distributor.

The blue and white thing is a peltier coolbox which they used because the original fridge has long gone.

Thanks for the engine id.
It was what Mick suspected but wasn't sure.
The bundle of wires below the dash include the imobiliser switch and another unidentified switch. We have tried all 4 combinations of on-offs just in case! It is possible that adjusting the points has made it a little worse but until there is a strong enough spark that's probably academic.

Thanks for the engine id.
It was what Mick suspected but wasn't sure.
The bundle of wires below the dash include the imobiliser switch and another unidentified switch. We have tried all 4 combinations of on-offs just in case! It is possible that adjusting the points has made it a little worse but until there is a strong enough spark that's probably academic.

Incorrectly adjusted contact breaker points alter the duration of "dwell" which can have a significant effect on the spark strength.

Hi 1)I am suspicious of that immobiliser and wiring!
As well 2)distributor cap may be wrong gap to that rotor arm.
3) That rotor arm may be tracking.
Hope this helps

Micky

The first thing I would try would be to take a wire directly from the + battery terminal to the coil (i.e. hotwire it) and see if this will give you a decent spark. If so, then there is an issue with the wiring, it could also be a faulty ign switch but try one thing at a time.
I'd dump the isolator switch wiring in any case, more trouble than it's worth.

I suspect that the points may have closed up on your journey which is what stopped it in the first place, the cam lobes in the dizzy sometimes wear unevenly, and I also think that the distributor cap may be the wrong one but as I said, one thing at a time and work through progressively.

Frank

Some part number & links:
Dizzy cap Renault part No 0851874100 or 77010274100

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Rotor arm Renault part No 0592112402 or 7701021981

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Frank

Hi, I'm Mick, husband to Judy. Thankyou everyone for all the advice and suggestions. I've been working my way through them.

To begin at the beginning after we were rescued by the RAC:
There was no spark to the plugs and the carbon brush in the distributor cap looked worn.
Points gap small Reset the points to 18/19 thou.
 Also the battery leads in the clamps looked loose.
Got some copper pipe offcuts split them and cut to length to  wrap around the cleaned up wire so it fits in clamp better.
Tightened screws down on to copper to make better contact.

Obtained new distributor cap on second attempt
 {its the same as the old one not a good fit either}
still no spark at plugs. Weak spark at the coil.

Put an old vw coil on no improvement. Both coils have 3 ohm primary resistance so i think they are12V coils not requiring a ballast resistor.
Volts across coil  less than 7v so hotwired + to battery positive.
 Volts at coil still only 10V so hardwired points contact to coil negative now get 12V.
The spark is much better. Get visible spark on spare spark plug
  {I guess that the two unknown switches and old wiring put resistance into the leads reducing the coil volts and spark energy.}
Still the engine would not fire.

Next day jumped the van from another car.
Would not start
sprayed  some cold start aerosol into carb and engine kicks occasionaly but does not fire up.

Tried again the next day with similar results
spark on a spare plug seems intermittent again, still hot-wired.
sprayed wd40 on leads
no change
Judy pointed out there is no smell of petrol from the carb and sounds "dry".
Rechecked the fuel line - petrol comes out when engine turned
but maybe not getting into mixture?

To do next
Will backtrack
Refit original coil
reduce points gap
confirm spark is still there
try cold start spray

Look At carb ?

Once I can fire it up I can get it off the road and into the garden and investigate the dodgy wiring properly.