Fiamma Bike Rack Failure

Just fitted my toggle kit.  When I tightened up the bolts, the toggles slipped slightly against the metal bracket so they are not perfectly lined up on the batten but good enough.  The toggle bolt will be stronger than the wood screw it replaces.  The adhesive A-S used to hold each mounting bar is white and soft so probably Sikaflex.   

I don't think I'm going to go above 50 kg.  I reweighed everything.  The rack, a pole I use to support a TV aerial, 13 pin socket & plate, lighting board, marker board, Tailormade bike cover and a bike lock came to about 13 kg.  So this leaves me 37 kg to play with or 34.5 kg if I upgrade the rack for e-bikes.  I don't know if 17.25 kg is doable for an e-bike.  If not I will only carry one bike as I do now with my push bike which is just under 13 kg.

Caraman wrote:

CC wrote:Just got back home from the Auto-Sleeper service centre, who this morning fitted the ‘Product Enhancer’ & was very pleased with how we were treated, despite being quoted an hours labour they only charged us for half an hour, so we got them to do a damp check which revealed an issue which I won’t go into in this thread, so with the bike rack upgrade & the damp check it came in well under the price quoted for the product enhancer alone so more than happy with that… Tim the workshop technician showed me the toggle & how it does its job, they also weight & stress tested our bike rack before fitting the product enhancer & it showed it was securely fixed even without the upgrade, happier now I know it’s been done anyway, a very good experience.

Good outcome.  My toggle kit is on its way.  The only 13mm drill bit I had was for masonry so have had to buy a HSS bit for £2 which just fits my chuck.  I've downloaded the fitting instructions so I'm ready to go.

Did Tim say anything about the load restrictions?  Is it 60 kg excluding the rack, 60 kg including the rack, 50 kg excluding the rack or 50 kg including the rack?

Thanks to all contributors. We have been following this post with interest as we have carried our ebikes on a dealer fitted Fiamma Pro C ebike rack for a few thousand miles around UK and EU with no problems, but found woodscrews and glue holding it on after reading this!
Phoned AS, were told parts dept short staffed so not taking phone calls. Emailed the address given on 26th July, no response to date. Got a promotional email from AS giving an email address to contact if we wanted to buy a new model, so sent them a request for the kit on the 9th August as we had nothing to lose by doing so...
Got a reply on 12th August as below:

Good afternoon
 
We can provide you with a bike rack toggle kit which you can fit yourself or you can take your vehicle to your local dealer and they will fit one for you free of charge.
 
The kit consists of toggles and bolts, we also loan out 2 drill guides (which will need to be returned to us) to make the process easier.
 
Kind regards

Michelle Matthews Parts Advisor
		Auto-Sleepers Group Limited

As we are soon to go on a trip with the bikes, we have actually already sourced the parts and done the job ourselves, but we thought this apparent shift in position by AS from charging for the job to offering an upgrade gratis via their dealers would be of interest...

L&LB - that's an interesting development.  The A-S parts department is very responsive if you use their on-line parts enquiry system rather than phone calls and e-mails.  I bought the kit from them and fitted it myself.  I wonder if dealers will be contacting owners about the modification.

Lord&LadyBurford wrote:
 
The kit consists of toggles and bolts, we also loan out 2 drill guides (which will need to be returned to us) to make the process easier.
 

Return the drill guides. That's a new one too. I take it they were supplied with the rails to do the fitting job properly and AS didn't use them and just tossed them in a bin. So early customers were sent them free, now they are running short.

The drill guides weigh more than the toggles and bolts so will cost a bit to send back.

We await the news from the first person to get the 'upgrade' ie. fitted properly as it should have been done in the first place, done for free, or has Ms Matthews got it wrong.

AS acting responsibly thats a new one.

I had mine done for free by the dealer some weeks ago. They offered it free as we had bought the van from them as part of true customer service. Nothing to do with AS.

John McHale wrote:I had mine done for free by the dealer some weeks ago. They offered it free as we had bought the van from them as part of true customer service. Nothing to do with AS.

You must have an independent dealer.  I gave up trying to get information out of Marquis who are part of A-S.

Caraman wrote:L&LB - that's an interesting development.  The A-S parts department is very responsive if you use their on-line parts enquiry system rather than phone calls and e-mails.  I bought the kit from them and fitted it myself.  I wonder if dealers will be contacting owners about the modification.

Hmm, we didn't have any luck with the online parts ordering system, it just kept asking us to log in to the "leentech" system. This seems to be for dealers only.

All enquiries go through the leentech system, you just have to register an account.

I've just looked at my 2019 Bourton with Fiamma bike rack. I have had nothing from AS about a recall to fix it. I won't be putting anything on the rack, I don't like the idea of it falling off. There is nothing with the documentation to indicate that a previous owner has had a recall fix.

I haven't read every post so I don't know if this point has already been offered. If you bond something to something else, even with NeverSeparate glue from the year 2799, the bond may be perfect to the surface you are sticking it to. If that surface is made of 2mm plastiglass, fibreglass or aluminium, the load may well pull the surface away from whatever is behind it. If that surface is stuck on the inside to polystyrene, as it would in a coachbuilt, then the whole load is dependent on the strength of the 2mm skin. I can't see any possibility of a bike rack with bikes being stuck to the 2mm skin of a coachbuilt holding itself on, let alone with a feather or leaf loading the rack.

gassygassy wrote:I've just looked at my 2019 Bourton with Fiamma bike rack. I have had nothing from AS about a recall to fix it. ... There is nothing with the documentation to indicate that a previous owner has had a recall fix.
...

The so called 'fix' has only been available for a short time so yours wont have it.  If you stuff your mobile phone up the void behind the bike rack mounting bars and take some photos you will see the wooden battens it is screwed into and after the 'fix' you will be able to see the bolt through toggles that replace the screws.  If you remove the bike rack and the grey plastic end pieces to the mounting bars and give everything a good clean you will see how its currently fitted with evidence of the soft sealant/adhesive that has been used.

I got in touch with Matt Sims at The Motorhome Podcast in the hope he would investigate all of this saga over the bike racks being inadequately fixed, he was reluctant to delve into I guess Auto-Sleepers being such a large company but he is known for looking into consumer rights etc for motorhome owners, he did contact me recently to say he was in contact with Auto Sleepers & also insurance  companies to find out how you stand in the event of a bike rack failing & falling into the carriageway which I suspect would be considered as an unsafe load? Some clarification on this would be nice so I hope Matt does come back to us if you do happen to read this Matt & Keith

If you are listed as a member of this forum then I guess it could be argued that you could be aware of this issue and thus carry some culpability if you drove a vehicle with an unsafe load. Ultimately most road traffic issues seem to be deemed the fault of the driver at least.

I guess the thing is with this forum is it’s unofficial & not endorsed by Auto-Sleepers. 

I personally think Auto-Sleepers have dropped a real clanger over this situation, it should have been treated as a safety recall like you’d have from a car manufacturer, owners should have been contacted & made aware that a problem has come to light that a small number of owners have had issues then offered to correct those effected.

The fact they are now offering to carry out the upgrade free of charge is all well & good but what about those of us who’ve paid to have this upgrade? Thank fully we were only charged half price which leads me to think they were already aware of the bad publicity unfolding regarding this issue, for such a serious issue with such serious consequences I think it’s been handled appalling by Auto-Sleepers personally.

As you say if the rack fails no doubt it would be the drivers responsibility which is a bit unfair if it’s down to how the vehicle or accessories have been fitted by the manufacturer, especially as it’s not been fitted In accordance with Fiamma’s fitting specifications, it’s all a bit heath robinson in my mind.

I agree - Marquis (my dealer) and A-S (who are the same organisation) do not come out of this well.  Despite receiving regular e-mails from both trying to get me to buy another new van, they send nothing relating to the van they have already sold me.  After being alerted to the bike rack issue through this thread I contacted Marquis who claimed not to have been aware of the problem.  After they spoke to A-S they came back saying there was no recall on my van but the rack mountings were downgraded last year to from 60kg to 50kg (which includes the weight of the rack).  After I learnt about the so called 'fix' through this thread I contacted Marquis again and again they said they knew nothing about it.  They said they would get back to me but, despite prompting from me, they never did.  In the meantime, I went directly to A-S who supplied me with the fixing kit which I bought and fitted myself.  I don't mind the cost but I do mind the total disregard they have shown, and are continuing to show, for their customers safety and that of other road users.

I think it would be a very good idea for those with bike racks on the back of coachbuilts to check just how the rack is fitted.

An examination of the outside of the mounting bars is probably not enough. You may see screw/bolt heads but you won’t know whether they are screws or bolts. An internal examination with a camera as suggested by Caraman is necessary. You need to look and see if the rack is actually through bolted, so you should be able to see nuts, penny washers and bolts, or perhaps toggles forward of the batten. If you can’t see anything protruding through the batten then it is not through bolted. In my opinion these racks should be through bolted.

My reasoning is that the holding power of screws is much less than that of a through fastening, and it can be further diminished by corrosion and/or rot. Just as importantly the nature of the screw is vital. Proper wood screws have a tapered thread that achieves its holding power in large part by compressing the wood fibres. Self tapping screws, and most modern “wood” screws, are parallel thread, which is fine if cutting a thread through hard materials such as metal or GRP, or indeed MDF or particle board, but there is very little holding power in low density wood. Many years ago I did some tests whilst working for HSE on a serious powerboat accident and the difference in holding power between taper thread and parallel thread screws was alarming.

If fitting a rack to a GRP back panel the natural tendency would be to use a self tapping screw, so, even if that passes through into a timber batten behind, the hold in that wood will not be good. I suspect that GRP back panels are very thin mouldings, so overall the screws and reinforcing batten will be adding very little strength. Conversely, if proper tapered wood screws are used the hold will only be in the timber batten, with the durability issues mentioned already. Given that every screw I have seen in my van is parallel thread I suspect that this is all that AS buy. If that is all they have used to screw and glue the rack mounting bars on then the screws will contribute little to the strength and you are really left with just the glue. You need through bolts, or the toggles now being suggested (if they are strong enough and durable enough).

I've just looked inside my drawers - "ooh, Matron" in a Kenneth Williams voice.
Anyway there is no evidence of any through-the-wall fixings. There is a notional attempt at fixing a batten which is at the height of the upper bike rack fixings.
Anyway I am not going to do anything about it, I am not going to carry any bikes or anything else. I just hope it doesn't fall off . . . . . . .
In court I will say I am Joe Public, not a qualified structural engineer, I rely on the professional expertise of the manufacturer. I cannot be expected to know better than the manufacturer. Your Honour. And is the bike rack an accessory? I don't know, it came with the vehicle and I didn't fit it.

Does anyone know if Auto Sleepers have made any comment about this via the Auto Sleeper Owners Club newsletter? Surely this should have been the most obvious & their first avenue for making owners aware which would have then filtered through to most of the community… Personally think they should do the right thing & step up to fix this situation rather than just leave it fester in the hope it will go away.

gassygassy wrote:I've just looked inside my drawers - "ooh, Matron" in a Kenneth Williams voice.
Anyway there is no evidence of any through-the-wall fixings. There is a notional attempt at fixing a batten which is at the height of the upper bike rack fixings.
...

You were wasting your time removing drawers and looking for through-the-wall fixings for the bike rack because there aren't any and even after the so called 'fix' has been carried out, there won't be any.  The bike rack mounting bars are only fixed to a GRP skin that I have described as an extension upwards of the GRP bumper.  There is a void between this and the rear wall which can be examined by getting underneath the rear of the van and poking a mobile phone upwards into the void.  You will then see the battens on the inside face of the GRP skin into which the upper and lower mounting bars are screwed.  You will only be able to see the screws if you remove your bike rack.

The so called 'fix' is to replace the two screws on the upper mounting bar with two heavy duty M6 toggle bolts that go through the mounting bar, GRP skin and the batten which then makes it though-bolted.  Fiamma recommend securing each mounting bar with four through bolts.  The A-S 'fix' is to use two through bolts and the existing adhesive on the top bar and leave the existing two wood screws and adhesive on the lower mounting bar.

Given the scale of modifications you have carried out past and present to your vans, I can't believe you won't carry out this very simple mod!

I have just got all enthusiastic and manoeuvered my old bones and looked up underneath the bumper. I know exactly the void you are talking about, I fitted a dual reversing camera to my Nuevo and used that void to run the cable down to the chassis.
Indeed there is this void and I am very pleased to report that in there I found a probably perfect construction whereby the bike rack is fitted (possibly screwed for all I know, I couldn't see any bolts) to a substantial piece of wood which in turn is fitted to the plywood floor of the camper body via a decent sized aluminium bracket. Hopefully I can attach a photo here:

Gassygassy,

That looks like the batten behind the lower mounting bar.  The upper mounting bar is the key one as the loaded rack tries to pull it away which on some vans has caused the adhesive to fail and its two wood screws to be pulled out of the batten.  The heavy duty M6 toggle bolts when fitted pass through the batten and metal bracket which are more secure than the wood screws which you can only see by removing the rack.

These wood screws that are mentioned - could it be that they are only to hold rack in place whilst the adhesive cures.

Paulmold wrote:These wood screws that are mentioned - could it be that they are only to hold rack in place whilst the adhesive cures.

Quite possibly.  They tighten up sufficiently to pull the mounting bar against the adhesive and GRP and that's all.

Just for comparison, here are two sections of body wall I cut out to fit LPG refilling points:




The red one is from my 59 reg Hobby, the white one from my 15 reg Nuevo. The Hobby wall exterior skin is 2mm aluminium and its inner skin  is 3mm ply. The Nuevo inner and outer skins are both 1.5mm grp. I might be being generous there, the outer definitely has traces of fibre in the plastic but I can't see any in the inner skin. The insulation on the hobby is 28mm and the Nuevo is 22mm.
Oh how I wish I hadn't sold the Hobby! It was soooo well made.

Like your Hobby, my German Knaus caravan was more heavily made and stronger than the two British caravans I had before and after (Elddis & Bailey).  It came without many of the weight adding extras found on British vans so overall it wasn't much heavier.  It had the best insulation and despite having a relatively large internal volume, it was the easiest to heat.  It was fully winterised with its gas and water tanks within the insulated space.  It was the best of my three caravans.