Lithium battery going f

by Neuvobluebird Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:53 pm

Hi I have 2021 Neuvo with a lithium Leisure battery. After a full charge the battery stays at 13.2v for about 4- 5 days and then drops to 11.9v after another 3 days and then drops to 0.9v at which point I receive a call from the tracking company informing me that I have a power out. The vehicle battery remains in the range 12.2v to 12.6v during the same period. ( The van doesn't have a Solar panel). The dealer has told me that the battery performance has been monitored remotely by AS and they state that the battery is in good health but suggest that when in storage the system shutdown button should be used. Whilst I acknowledge that I could use the system shutdown button it doesn't appear right that a lithium battery is running totally flat within a period of 9-10 days whereas the non lithium vehicle battery its maintaining a charge. Would be interested to hear other members' views?

by Roopert Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:31 pm

If you have no solar panel, you need to use the system shutdown button.

I can't recall what power control system you would have in a 2021 Nuevo, but it's likely to be an EC500, I would think, and typical static power consumption of one of those is probably 250mA, at least. I.e. 1 Ah is used from the battery every 4 hours = 6 Ah per day.

IIRC, some people report more than this - possibly as high as 400mA all the time. That equates to near enough 10 Ah per day.

Those two figures give a fair idea of the typical range of "lifetime" that you can expect with the system not shutdown. If you want more accuracy then it would help to have someone with a multimeter measure what the actual static load from your power controller is.

I can't recall the capacity of the standard lithium battery, but if it is around 80 Ah than it's not surprising that the battery is lasting only 8-10 days.

The vehicle battery should be relatively unaffected, as the default is for the Sargent unit to take its power from the leisure battery.

by Kdc Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:46 pm

I agree with Rooperts post but would ask if lithium battery was fitted from new or a later addition? If it was from build hopefully the systems been built to fully charge the battery. If added later and van is fitted with the px300 charger which is designed for lead acid and no other changes have been made then lithium may only be charging to 80% (due to lower chargeing voltage)which would reduce the drain time. I thought 2021 vans had solar from build…..obviously that is not the case.

by Guest Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:18 am

No battery should be left for any long period of time unused connected to equipment. It needs to be disconnected or the equipment switched off.

by Caraman Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:15 am

The manuals that accompany the Nuevo do not make it clear that the EC700 (which you have) constantly drains the leisure battery which will flatten it very quickly if it is not being charged by either the PX300 connected to an EHU, the alternator when the vehicle is being driven or in the summer months a solar panel (which you do not have). The simple answer is to turn the EC700 off whenever the Nuevo is out of use which is what I do despite having a solar panel and access to an EHU. The alternative of leaving the PX300 on connected to an EHU is wasteful of electricity.

by Neuvobluebird Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:21 am

Kdc wrote:I agree with Rooperts post but would ask if lithium battery was fitted from new or a later addition? If it was from build hopefully the systems been built to fully charge the battery. If added later and van is fitted with the px300 charger which is designed for lead acid and no other changes have been made then lithium may only be charging to 80% (due to lower chargeing voltage)which would reduce the drain time. I thought 2021 vans had solar from build…..obviously that is not the case.

The lithium battery was a standard fit for the 2021 60th anniversary model - also came with Habitation Ac hence no room on roof for solar panel

by Caraman Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:28 am

A downside of turning the EC700 off it that the habitation step won't work so, unless you have very long legs, its best to deploy the step before turning the EC700 off and remember to turn the EC700 back on before driving. The tracker will continue to work with the EC700 off but the levels download function on AS Monitor and I believe the SMS/e-mail vehicle alerts will not work. It is still possible to see 6 hourly snapshots of the leisure battery voltage under locate but not the vehicle battery voltage.

by Toffee Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:26 pm

I think at 0.9v you are damaging the battery. The lithium batteries I fit at work are programmed to shut down when they get to 80% discharged. This is because they can be damaged by being fully discharged. In some cases if the 80% discharge shut down is overridden and the user decides to discharge the battery completely they have to be returned to the manufacturer, who will attempt to recover the battery.

by Guest Mon Mar 14, 2022 6:48 am

Toffee wrote:I think at 0.9v you are damaging the battery. The lithium batteries I fit at work are programmed to shut down when they get to 80% discharged. This is because they can be damaged by being fully discharged. In some cases if the 80% discharge shut down is overridden and the user decides to discharge the battery completely they have to be returned to the manufacturer, who will attempt to recover the battery.

Surely you mean 80% of their voltage not 80% discharged ?

by Caraman Mon Mar 14, 2022 7:38 am

Battery voltage doesn't drop by 80% because the battery's SOC has dropped from 100% to 20%.

by Caraman Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:11 am

Caraman wrote:A downside of turning the EC700 off it that the habitation step won't work so, unless you have very long legs, its best to deploy the step before turning the EC700 off and remember to turn the EC700 back on before driving. The tracker will continue to work with the EC700 off but the levels download function on AS Monitor and I believe the SMS/e-mail vehicle alerts will not work. It is still possible to see 6 hourly snapshots of the leisure battery voltage under locate but not the vehicle battery voltage.

Just remembered, a further consequence of turning off the EC700 is that the Truma CP, even though it is off, loses its time settings and defaults to gas as its power source. For some reason when the EC700 is turned back on, the Truma CP also comes on which shows up an error code until the EC700 CP power button is turned on or the Truma CP is turned off.

by Guest Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:49 am

Sometimes this high tech means of controlling stuff is more hassle than it is worth me thinks

by Caraman Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:17 am

Bigplumbs wrote:Sometimes this high tech means of controlling stuff is more hassle than it is worth me thinks

You are dead right but it seems to me that if your'e buying a new or nearly new motorhome (or caravan probably) you have little choice but to accept the high tech with all its foibles.

by Toffee Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:51 am

Bigplumbs wrote:
Toffee wrote:I think at 0.9v you are damaging the battery. The lithium batteries I fit at work are programmed to shut down when they get to 80% discharged. This is because they can be damaged by being fully discharged. In some cases if the 80% discharge shut down is overridden and the user decides to discharge the battery completely they have to be returned to the manufacturer, who will attempt to recover the battery.
Surely you mean 80% of their voltage not 80% discharged ?

No I mean “80% discharged

by v8oholic Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:32 am

Caraman wrote:
Caraman wrote:A downside of turning the EC700 off it that the habitation step won't work so, unless you have very long legs, its best to deploy the step before turning the EC700 off and remember to turn the EC700 back on before driving. The tracker will continue to work with the EC700 off but the levels download function on AS Monitor and I believe the SMS/e-mail vehicle alerts will not work. It is still possible to see 6 hourly snapshots of the leisure battery voltage under locate but not the vehicle battery voltage.
Just remembered, a further consequence of turning off the EC700 is that the Truma CP, even though it is off, loses its time settings and defaults to gas as its power source. For some reason when the EC700 is turned back on, the Truma CP also comes on which shows up an error code until the EC700 CP power button is turned on or the Truma CP is turned off.

Could be Whale on a 2021 van perhaps. When I had mine powered off in December/January the screen flickered like crazy when powered back on, then worked fine after a couple of minutes. Raising that issue with Marquis was a waste of time, not interested in the slightest. In future I will leave the EC700 switched on, and just switch on the mains supply to the EHU remotely (it’s on a smart plug) if the leisure battery is getting low. Won’t be necessary now until probably November though, solar is keeping it topped up.

by timsurf2021 Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:36 am

We had exactly the same problem with voltage dropped 0.9v and rose again to 11.5v overnight on our 2021 Kingham and did not trigger an alert. After several phone calls to Sargent they decided the lithium battery was faulty. I was never happy with the battery as it had no charge in it when it arrived at the dealer. Auto-Sleepers then sent a smaller replacement, that had to go back, they then sent the correct one, that would not charge, eventually the correct one was delivered and so far no problem.

by breakaleg Mon Mar 14, 2022 10:45 am

We bought our Nuevo in May 2021 (new)

We ordered the van and found out by accident that it would be fitted with a air conditioner and no room for the solar panel, when I said that I did not want a ac but did want a solar panel they were in time to do my bidding.

(I would have cancelled the order if they couldn't do that)

I have left the EC700 on all through the winter and the batteries 1 lead and 1 Lithium have stayed charged, when on two occasions the Lithium dropped to 11.6 v I just took the van for a decent run and the batteries then held for a few weeks. we recently went on a four day trip three weeks ago and they haven't dropped below 12.7 v since and at the moment both are showing 13.3 v.
we do get a fair amount of sunshine on the panel.
Pete

by Relaxez-Vous Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:23 pm

I wonder how people will manage in these vans without a solar panel. It will be challenging camping with ASOC for 4 days at a Warners Motorhome show (no EHU available unless someone is disabled). Even with an 80W panel things can be marginal. These latest Euro 6 vans will have stop start engines, smart alternators where if there is no B2B unit you could arrive at an off-grid camping site without a fully charged leisure battery. Then off course you've got your Sargent EC700 to help you, or perhaps not.

We had a campervan without EHU for years, but then the water and toilet flush were manually operated.

by Paulmold Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:57 pm

When AS started fitting Lithium they said solar wasn't necessary as Lithiums can be discharged to a much lower rate.

by Caraman Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:54 pm

v8oholic wrote:
Caraman wrote:
Caraman wrote:A downside of turning the EC700 off it that the habitation step won't work so, unless you have very long legs, its best to deploy the step before turning the EC700 off and remember to turn the EC700 back on before driving. The tracker will continue to work with the EC700 off but the levels download function on AS Monitor and I believe the SMS/e-mail vehicle alerts will not work. It is still possible to see 6 hourly snapshots of the leisure battery voltage under locate but not the vehicle battery voltage.
Just remembered, a further consequence of turning off the EC700 is that the Truma CP, even though it is off, loses its time settings and defaults to gas as its power source. For some reason when the EC700 is turned back on, the Truma CP also comes on which shows up an error code until the EC700 CP power button is turned on or the Truma CP is turned off.
Could be Whale on a 2021 van perhaps. When I had mine powered off in December/January the screen flickered like crazy when powered back on, then worked fine after a couple of minutes. Raising that issue with Marquis was a waste of time, not interested in the slightest. In future I will leave the EC700 switched on, and just switch on the mains supply to the EHU remotely (it’s on a smart plug) if the leisure battery is getting low. Won’t be necessary now until probably November though, solar is keeping it topped up.

I had forgotten the OP probably has a Whale heating system which I don't know about.

I had a flickering EC700 CP screen when turning the EC700 back on for the first time a couple of months ago after I fitted the Votronic. The flickering quickly corrected itself and so far hasn't reoccurred. I wont raise it as a warranty issue with A-S or Sargent as I associate it with the regulator I fitted.

I turned into a bit of a voltage checker with the original Sargent solar setup in Jan last year when I routinely started to turn the EC700 off when the van was out of use. This confirmed that the VB stayed charged indefinitely as all the solar charge went to it and the LB was good for 3 months without charge. If I thought the LB could do with a bit of a charge, I connected to the EHU and turned the PX300 on for a few hours but I didn't turn the greedy EC700 back on as there was no point. All my Votronic voltage checks to date indicate that both batteries will now stay charged indefinitely with the EC700 off. I suspect that soon like you the Votronic will be able to keep the LB charged with the EC700 on but I don't intend to do this as the constant charge and discharge cycles, although not very deep, will shorten the battery life.

by breakaleg Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:06 pm

I was told that I wouldn't need solar as the Lithium would last longer without help, but I really needed the panel to keep the vehicle battery charged throughout the winter months.

Apparently, if you turn the EC700 off all the charge goes to the vehicle battery but of course it means you can't use the step and as I have mobility issues this would mean I could only get in and out through the cab (I have steps fitted here and they are the best thing that I have ever had fitted) (for my situation)
Pete

by Caraman Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:22 pm

breakaleg wrote:I was told that I wouldn't need solar as the Lithium would last longer without help, but I really needed the panel to keep the vehicle battery charged throughout the winter months.

Apparently, if you turn the EC700 off all the charge goes to the vehicle battery but of course it means you can't use the step and as I have mobility issues this would mean I could only get in and out through the cab (I have steps fitted here and they are the best thing that I have ever had fitted) (for my situation)
Pete

The step can be deployed before the EC700 is turned off. This leaves the step permanently out until the EC700 is turned back on for use. On my drive at home the step is always out with the EC700 off.

I'm no expert on lithium batteries but I think they are able to be discharged much more fully and frequently than lead acid batteries without degrading the battery and their self-discharge is also much less. So when the vehicle is out of use with the EC700 turned off, the lithium LB will be fine without charge for very much longer than a lead acid battery.

by breakaleg Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:43 pm

Hi Caraman,
We park on the road and I feel every kid and drunk would possibly jump on the step or sit on it to eat their chips. .lol

Yes the lithium has held it's charge pretty well all through the winter so far, 11.6 v being the lowest so far and with a bit of sunshine it has soon recovered.

Pete

by Dbvwt Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:35 pm

I’m not up to date with Lithium but found this explained things a bit more. I can’t say if every fact is 100% correct but I’m a little bit wiser now!
https://www.roadpro.co.uk/lithium-battery-guide

Regarding the step, I’m actually in the process of bypassing my EC500 at the moment so that the step can be operated independently. I got fed up having to turn the Sargent on every time I needed the step.

by Relaxez-Vous Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:44 pm

People seem satisfied with Air Con and no solar panel when they have a lithium battery, camping off grid bear these consumption figures in mind.

These were my power consumption figures I took a while back.
Sargent EC700 on 218ma
power up fridge and it's up to 240ma
power on our Truma but no water or heating set, adds a fluctuating 25ma to 50ma, I'm now up to 275ma
Touch the EC700 LCD screen and that adds another 36ma
Lets call it 0.3 amps, that's 7 amp hours in 24 hours, not including use of water pump, toilet flush or habitation lighting, no MiFi, no iNet box, no Satellite system and certainly no TV, a heavy user of power.
Incidentally I found the LED strip light above our sliding door and associated spot light consumed a significant amount which I didn't write down. The other touch operated lights had modest power usage.

Lithium battery going f

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