Van conversion or compact under 6 m c/built?

I posted this on the coachbuilt board and just discovered there is also one foe van conversion...so here it is...

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 by Aj200 Today at 5:35 pm
Hello ....Im new here and am a prospective Autosleeper owner ( hope thats allowed) 
Trying to get to grips with the various types of AS! Was originally looking at Symbol type but then realised that some overcab  ones were about same size eg. Nuevo. Hoping as from Monday 12 April there will be an opportunity to visit some retailers to have a look at options in real life. But there are a few questions I have that maybe someone here could help with? There are just two of us so no need for anything more than a 2 berth though wouldnt necessarily refuse a 4 berth but we dont need more than 2 belted seats. Looking to do some travel both in this country and Europe so want a diesel and also    a washroom cubicle. Looking at these two types of bodies is there a substantial difference in running costs ( mpg, tax, insurance?). What are the issues re height, length and width...thinking ferries but also everyday things like parking? Looking at prices currently I think we would need be be looking at 10- 20 yr old models. Quite like Peugots but but should we be looking at others? If so, any to avoid? I think that's enough for now but any buying advice is greatly appreciated ...used to have a caravan but slightly nervous about driving a van sized vehicle so must be well under 6 m. 
Thanks in advance:smile!:

Double posting isn't good forum etiquette. If you're asking questions about A/S vans in general then there are more appropriate sections that cover both.

Hello and welcome to this most friendly and informative forum. We enjoyed an 08 reg Nuevo and being a coach build under 6 metres easily accommodated in car parks. The washroom is spacious with means of separating the shower enclosure. Bed arrangement is either transverse double or two singles that require the cab seats to be rotated to give length, ideal if you are under 5' 6" . If you can look for a Nuevo of similar age as above, it should be in good condition, not to say older models that have been well looked after will be a pleasure to own.

steamdrivenandy wrote:Double posting isn't good forum etiquette. If you're asking questions about A/S vans in general then there are more appropriate sections that cover both.

Sorry I didnt see that ...all new to me ...
apologies. How can i put this right? Which is the more appropriate section? Thanks

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound brusque. I'm a mod on the biggest caravan forum on the web and used to just moving stuff to the right place and merging duplicate threads. I'd suggest that either the 'All Models' or General Chat' sections would cover both the types of van you're considering. 

If I were you I'd leave it as it is and the mods will tidy it up if they feel it warrants it.

Van conversion will use less diesel because its aerodynamically less like a brick than a coach built. However much more cramped and smaller locker space, particularly noticeable on top lockers. Bathroom also significantly smaller. We love our Nuevo and it's Safeway to drive as a car once you are used to it. Turning circle is significantly smaller than our Prius. Turning circle of van conversion is probably greater as rear wheels are generally nearer the back corner. Watch out for misleading insect screens on van conversion windows that don't open!

One thing to think about is the rear doors. For various reasons, an absolute must have for me was rear doors that opened. So that meant a van conversion and not a coach built. After that, I just selected the model that had the best layout for me. I found the perfect one for me. Yours will be different. Enjoy the search.

Hi AJ
Welcome to the forum from Bridington, we enjoyed are 09 Nuevo EK ES for a wee while, it was ideal with the overhead cab berth,lots of storage, great w/c and wash room, got fed up making up beds using the swivel front seats.
Boaby

burlingtonboaby wrote:Hi AJ
Welcome to the forum from Bridington, we enjoyed are 09 Nuevo EK ES for a wee while, it was ideal with the overhead cab berth,lots of storage, great w/c and wash room, got fed up making up beds using the swivel front seats.
Boaby

Exactly my experience!

 
Many of us on here come from a caravanning background so dont feel you are on your own.
I think you would probably be happy with a Nuevo as far as length and facilities are concerned, where the van conversions score is width being slightly narrower. 
Lutons come in handy for storage as you will need to get used to the fact you dont have the car to carry things in as well.
Regarding running costs, favour the diesel, Van Conversions are only slightly more economical than coachbuilts.
Most convertors use the Sevel Based Chassis (Badged in the UK as either Fiat or Peugeot) and Mercedes (mainly coachbuilts) and Fords  and VW of coarse.  All newer models will give good mpg figures if driven sensibly.  Older vans tend not to be as economical.

So what ever you do, take your time choosing. You have the advantage of being tuggers so know what you like in layouts.

Hi AJ
We all have personal preferences and different usage, you will probably get 100 different answers to your question and none will be 'wrong'. Looking at the specifics you mention.
Ron has covered the running costs, in high winds you may find a coachbuilt less comfortable and it will arguably be slightly slower.
Driving a motorhome to me the difference between driving a 6 metre long motorhome and a 7 metre long one is not an issue, width is far more important. Parking anything up to 6 metres or just above will be absolutely fine in a normal space. Ferries I believe Brittany ferries first category is up to 7 metres so not an issue. Ironically road tax on a van over 3.5 tons is cheaper ( make sense of that) all others are the same or based on emissions.
Base chassis most Peugeot , Citroen, Fiat's are the same vehicle with a different badge. VW, Ford, Toyota, Mercedes, Renault none of them are bad in any way, do make sure whatever you choose if older has enough power though, some really old vans struggle to keep up these days.
I would concentrate on the layout you like, try to look at lots of vans and go on from there. Do ask here though about anything you need to know, we are a friendly bunch!

Folk talk about economy and generally mean fuel consumption and there are only very small differences and it's not a lot of money anyway, in the scheme of things.

Motorhomes average about 3000 miles a year. Some a lot more, some even less. A mid noughties Symbol or Nuevo will cost about £700 a year in fuel for that average mileage. Depreciation will cost about £2,000 a year, maybe less if you buy and sell privately and cannily. Servicing and repairs for a van that age needs a budget of around £2,000 a year. VED is around £300 a year, though you can save a bit there if you SORN it for winter. Insurance depends on your claim record but for us it's £300 per year. Overall running costs about £3,000 a year or £1 per mile. Full cost about £6,000 a year or nearly £2 per mile.

So you can see that fuel at £700 is dwarfed by the full cost of £6,000 and if you do a few MPG more or less it only changes that figure by a few £'s. Obviously, double the annual mileage and it costs about £1,400, but it's still just a fifth of the overall cost.

Cymro wrote:

Bobskate wrote:

burlingtonboaby wrote:Hi AJ
Welcome to the forum from Bridington, we enjoyed are 09 Nuevo EK ES for a wee while, it was ideal with the overhead cab berth,lots of storage, great w/c and wash room, got fed up making up beds using the swivel front seats.
Boaby

Exactly my experience!

Me too!  The Nuevo ES is brilliant, as Burlingtonboaby describes, but it is indeed a chore to have to make up the beds (or at least the one which has multiple parts), and both involve swivelling the seats. Yet it's under 6m long, which we need in order to park 2 vehicles.  I think we've got off lightly insofar as bud quality is concerned - touch (fake) wood.

Returning to the OP, every motorhome is a compromise: you must prioritise your needs, preferences and budget, and then list the pros and cons of possible models which meet your criteria.  Ensure head overrules heart.  Easier said than done: we stepped into a new Nuevo; said "oooh! All this and under 6m"; and that was that!

Cymro

Cymro

Me too too!

Having experienced camper vans abroad, touring New Zealand and South America, I quickly realised how much a chore I found making up a bed.  So I specifically looked for quick and easy bed arrangements.  I dismissed many vans after asking the salesman to demonstrate making up the bed.  In mine, using a Duvalay, the bed is made ready in about 30 seconds.  It’s ideal for me, but I appreciate others will be different.  It’s one of those things that you need to experience before knowing how important it is (or isn’t).

We have never needed to spend £2000 every year on servicing and repairs and defo never had £2000 a year depreciation! Maybe we have been lucky and bought and sold well.

£2,000 a year is an average for an average condition 15 year old van. It may be £3,000 or £4,000 in one year and a few hundred the next, but that's generally what they cost and what should be budgeted for, just in case. You may be lucky and pick a superbly maintained example and nothing expensive goes wrong but at that age they'll likely have been through many owners, some of whom won't have been careful or caring.  Newer vans will have a much lower repair cost but will involve spending substantially more capital. So it's a swings and roundabouts situation.

I recently ran through all Auto-Sleeper vans advertised on Autotrader that were 2005 to 2016 and averaged the prices being asked for each year .

2005	£25,000
2006	£27,000
2007	£29,000
2008	£31,000
2009	£33,000
2010	£35,000
2011	£37,000
2012	£39,000
2013	£41,000
2014	£43,000
2015	£46,000
2016	£49,000

The figures were rounded and the largest year had 19 vans advertised and the smallest year had seven. There were a whole mess of models involved from Mezans to big Mercs but generally the tinies were balanced by biggies in each year.

You can see that the prices dropped by £2,000 each year, although for more recent vans the drop was £3,000 a year. If you buy privately you can usually avoid some of the dealers margin but you won't have the CRA cover that a dealer purchase provides. If you sell privately you have the hassle that can involve, but if you can find a mug they may be willing to pay dealer prices, otherwise you have to accept less because you're offering less than a dealer does. But overall the message is clear, vans depreciate by around £2,000 a year.

For some reason my spreadsheet excerpt didn't appear in the post so I'll type it.

2005 £25,000
2006 £27,000
2007 £29,000
2008 £31,000
2009 £33,000
2010 £35,000
2011 £37,000
2012 £39,000
2013 £41,000
2014 £43,000
2015 £46,000
2016 £49,000

Oh I've just thought, my figures are based on prices being asked on one day a few weeks ago. If you've sold and/or purchased in the last 12 months or so used prices have increased by around £5,000 across the board. That won't be reflected in my figures above. It means that if you bought a van, say five years ago for £40,000, under normal circumstances you could expect it to be sold by a dealer now for £30,000. However that dealer would only give you £25,000 for it and the £5,000 would be his margin. You could maybe sell it privately for that £30,000 too, if you found a willing buyer. That would mean the five years ownership would've cost you between £10,000 and £15,000, or £2,000 to £3,000 a year. However that last 12 months surge in demand has led to an average £5,000 price increase, so the selling price for your van goes to £35,000 and the dealer, who is desperate for stock, will give you £29,000 for the van. With luck you may be able to sell it privately for £35,000 and therefore the cost of those five years becomes £5,000 and £11,000 or £1,000 to £2,000 per year. Presumably the £5,000 premium will only last whilst demand is high due to the unique covid situation and pricing could either gradually drop back, or if lots of vans are returned to the market next year, say, they could come down with a bump.

over the years of being fortunate to have owned clunked campers and newer motorhomes , every dealership we have visited with the intention of browsing there vans , a sales person has appeared sucking their teeth,if we appear to be interested in something on the forecourt, Glasses caravan price guide appears from the sales manager ready to knock your van down in price.
Our local dealership is desperate for vans ,however will not offer more then the guide price.
Boaby

Like roli we used to have a caravan.  To be honest I find driving a 6.3m Broadway easier than towing a medium sized caravan.  Of course the first few drives you need to be careful, watch your width etc but I wouldnt get hung up on a van being less that 6m for that reason alone - obviously you might have other constraints like storage, and there are the issues of width & height - but that applies to any coachbuilt.
Hopefully you will be able to get a good look round some vans.  Depending on what viewing arrangements exist afterApril 12th it might be worth going to a big dealer and looking at loads of vans - new & secondhand - just to get a real feel about what you think might suit.  Actually sitting in the van and visualising using it really helps.  Surprising what you thought you wanted turns into what you dont want!

I've owned both a coach built and a van conversion and there isn't a huge amount of difference driving either type really although I am more comfortable with the PVC. It feels smaller even though it's longer than my old coach built, and it has virtually no overhang over the back wheels. You will have slightly more room inside a coach built and therefore more storage but  generally they are wider and taller. 

Another thing to consider might be a fixed bed which are available in some PVC's as well. Are you happy making the bed up every evening or would you just like to hop out in the morning tidy the duvet and forget about it? 

Something that hasn't been mentioned is washing the thing. Personally I find a PVC much easier to clean than a coach built. They are big beasties even at sub 6m and they are white - a lot of white. Being a caravanner I'm sure you know that though! Of course, funds permitting you could always get a man than can to clean it for you.

Once you are able to view them I'm sure you will find the type you want. Good luck. 

We like the Symbol very much - at 5.4m the baby in the various options but easy to park and drive, large opening side door with unobstructed view, rear doors can be opened as well although view somewhat obstructed depending on where you sit! Two single beds are simple and easy to make up although if one of you is tall that might be more challenging, very comfortable and easy for either to access the loo at night.
Double bed option more of a faff to make up, sorting out cushions etc and not so easy for nighttime loo access!
Storage is absolutely fine and manageable for short trips but a longer one with bad. restrictive weather conditions could be a problem.
As others have said, it is all about compromise and personal requirements but have some fun exploring what layouts are out there....good luck with the hunt!

Somebody mentioned to go out, when we're allowed, and look at a dealership. Oaktree are in Notts where the OP hails from. I've just checked their stocklist. It says 65 vans, however 34 of those are shown as sold or reserved, leaving 31 to view. Seven of those 31 are small campers with flip tops and 15 are vans over 7m long, mostly megabucks. That leaves just 9 vans out of 65 that might be worth the OP looking at. That's how the market is at present, the whole middle section has been gobbled up.

Spinney tell me most of their showground and their 5 acre storage site is rammed with reserved vans, waiting for viewings by those who've put down a returnable deposit. How many end up back on the market when things open up will be interesting to see.

there is a middle ground between PVCs (2.05m wide) and full width 'coachbuilts' (2.35m) and these are slim coachbuilts (around 2.12m) which have much of the advantages of both designs...
easy to drive and (if 6.5m or less in length) to park but with better insulation, storage, space etc

I think you're focusing on the wrong things at this stage of your journey into ownership. 

You should go and look at as many different vans as you can and write three lists.

1) What MUST your van have? These are the things that are deal breakers and usually things that can't be retrofitted. 

Our list included fixed bed, shower and toilet.

2) What SHOULD your van have? These are the things you'll definitely need but can wait until after you've purchased a vehicle. 

For us, this included a tow bar, bike rack and solar. 

3) What COULD your van have? These are the nice-to-haves.

Our list included wind out awning and external BBQ point

Once you have your three lists, then start considering which models meet those requirements. You may find this alone answers your C/B v PVC question. 

Tommy.

We have had our Warwick (hetty) just over 4 years now averages 36 to the gallon. 10,000 miles. 
In that time road tax £1000 insurance £1000 servicing £300. Depreciation 0.
Costs, new gas regulator new leisure battery, air-con regas and a new loo water pump = £400.
Everything else was optional. 
Saved us £5000 hiring a campervan in New Zealand as we swapped ours for it.
Don't buy new and take your time and things are not that expensive.