Problem with Whale Watermaster

I have a problem with the Whale Watermaster filling system on our 2011 Nuevo 2 and wondered if anyone could offer advice on what the issue might be. I should say I've had the van for nearly 2 years and have only had minor problems with the Whale external pump which was sometimes a bit reluctant to work. Here's what I'm seeing:

When I connect the Whale filler hose and switch on the habitation electrics the tank fill is very slow (approx 1 litre per min). 
When I turn off the electrics the filling is much quicker but obviously the fill isn't switched off automatically when the tank is full.
When I connect the external pump this runs but no water appears to get into the tank. 

I suspected the solenoid may be at fault as this was getting very hot when trying to fill the tank. I replaced the solenoid with a new one but the symptoms are still the same.

I can fill the tank using the drain tap but have found the external pump useful when staying on sites for a few days where the taps are a long way from the van. 

Thanks for any advice.

Have you looked at this thread
https://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t33023-whalemaster-system-and-whale-external-pump?highlight=whale

Thanks for the link Caraman. 
I did a general search for 'whale' on the forum and there are many discussions on this topic! 
I'm sure the solenoid has power as both the old and new one get hot when I am trying the tank fill. However I'm not good with electrics as have no experience in this area (40+ years working in IT isn't much help!). 
Still pondering but may go the way suggested in the other post of removing the solenoid.

I tested mine a week or so ago and from memory the solenoid was continuously drawing 0.8 A just to keep the valve open.  I would expect the solenoid to warm up quite significantly if the water fill takes time which it does.  You are lucky that you can get at your solenoid.  On my 2019 Nuevo it is completely inaccessible behind the EC700 and EM40.  This is annoying as the solenoid has a small gauze filter which clogs up and I would like to get at mine to check it is clean.  The solenoid also has a water pressure sensor which means if there is not enough water pressure it wont open or stay open.  If connected to a mains water supply and you partially close the water tap there is insufficient water flow to maintain the pressure and the solenoid pulses on and off.  This sometimes happens when my whale submersible pump is connected (with a water roll) which can't be good for the pump and slows the filling.  My theory is that the water flow is being constrained by debris in the gauze filter that I can't get at.  It's only a theory but if my submersible pump pulsing becomes a recurring problem I am inclined ditch the solenoid altogether and power the pump from the adjacent 12v external TV cigar lighter socket.  I don't think the autofill function that shuts the solenoid when the float valve and relay indicate the fresh water tank is full is important enough to retain.

Just a thought, I’m not an electrician, but the solenoid valve seems to working in reverse to what it should, opening when when the habitation electrics are off and closing when the electrics are on. Could the solenoid be connected in reverse. From my recent experience with the door lock solenoid when wired in reverse locked the door when it should have unlocked and vice versa.

As I say I’m not an electrician.

Mike

Mike187 wrote:Just a thought, I’m not an electrician, but the solenoid valve seems to working in reverse to what it should, opening when when the habitation electrics are off and closing when the electrics are on. Could the solenoid be connected in reverse. From my recent experience with the door lock solenoid when wired in reverse locked the door when it should have unlocked and vice versa.

As I say I’m not an electrician.

Mike

I know what you mean but energising the solenoid to open its valve is probably linked to energising the water roll's submersible pump with the power only switched off when the autofill is switched off or the fresh water tank float valve and relay kick in because the fresh water tank is full.  When there is no water pressure and the autofill is off its probably best that the solenoid valve is shut to stop wee beasties getting in.

Mike187 wrote:Just a thought, I’m not an electrician, but the solenoid valve seems to working in reverse to what it should, opening when when the habitation electrics are off and closing when the electrics are on. Could the solenoid be connected in reverse. From my recent experience with the door lock solenoid when wired in reverse locked the door when it should have unlocked and vice versa.

As I say I’m not an electrician.

Mike

I have never seen the Solenoid and the Valve it operates so whether there is any possibility of changing its actuation I can't say. However the whole idea is to control the filling, and shutting off of the process when the tank is full. The control circuit needs the Habitation electrics on to do the controlling.

Nice try but its probably not a feasible idea.

I think the best thing to do with the system is as I suggested to Caraman. Take out the Valve, Pressure Switch, and Filter. Replace it with a piece of pipe exactly the same length as the unit. On the 2019 Nuevo there is Habitation 12 Volts on the External TV Socket Terminals nearby, easily accessible, feed the External Pump from there via a Switch for manual control.
No chance then of problems from the Float Swich either. Several pieces of Whale troublesome junk ousted in one go.

I’ll bow to you electrical knowledge marconi, I’m only using layman’s logic (often the most dangerous kind) but from what pompeymike described in his original post the default of his valve seems to be open, when habitation electrics are off it fills ok from a water mains connection when it should not, I can’t be the only one wasted time thinking the tank is filling to find it isn’t cos I’ve forgotten to switch the electrics on!

When the electrics are on and either pump attached or mains attached the pressure sensor in the inlet seems to be closing the valve when it should be opening it. As the external pump is still trying to run the float switch in the tank hasn’t kicked in as that would cut the pump off.

As I say I’m not an electrician so I might me confusing everybody 

Mike

Mike187 wrote:I’ll bow to you electrical knowledge marconi, I’m only using layman’s logic (often the most dangerous kind) but from what pompeymike described in his original post the default of his valve seems to be open, when habitation electrics are off it fills ok from a water mains connection when it should not, I can’t be the only one wasted time thinking the tank is filling to find it isn’t cos I’ve forgotten to switch the electrics on!

When the electrics are on and either pump attached or mains attached the pressure sensor in the inlet seems to be closing the valve when it should be opening it. As the external pump is still trying to run the float switch in the tank hasn’t kicked in as that would cut the pump off.

As I say I’m not an electrician so I might me confusing everybody 

Mike

Sorry Mike I got you wrong, I thought you were suggesting re designing the system.  Yes I saw that in pompeymike's original post yesterday but didn't register it, today I didn't re read it. I now have the post open in another window.

Yes that is odd, pompey says the Solenoid gets hot when he is trying to fill so it is actuating at the right time, the fill though is faster with the power off.

I don't think this would be electrically related, as you say, connected in reverse. Is the solenoid operated vale stuck or broken.

That is what I am, stuck because I have never seen one so don't know what can go wrong, a good reason for not responding yesterday when I thought, that is odd someone will have had the same problem and will have him sorted out in no time.
Obviously the thing strips down to some extent to get to clean the ridiculous little filter.

This is the valve if it’s any help https://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/RV2013IndividualPDFs/WaterSystemAccessories-ElectricSolenoidValve.pdf

Mike