Sliding door roller guides

Specifically on the Boxer X250. When we got our van the side door was very hard to close. At first we did not realise having no previous experience of what they were like. Tiring of it I investigated and realised it was very badly adjusted and aligned. A new upper guide and adjustment made it much easier but the middle roller guide does have some residual damage. I want to replace that roller. Looking at what is available I can get the genuine article from Peugeot at a stupid price but I resent that. Coastal Motorhomes has it too at a lower price but still expensive. The aftermarket items are much less expensive but all are for the box van. The window van is different but as far as I can see without doing any actual measurements is the plastic cover on the outside. The metal bits look the same.

 Have any other owners been through this question? Anyone tried fitting a box van roller guide to a window van with the plastic part transposed?

I can’t just change the bearings, that’s not the issue.

Apart from perhaps the added weight of the glass, I can't see why the two should be different?
If affordable I'd go for the aftermarket one and see if it fits?
Good Luck

Timedout wrote:I can get the genuine article from Peugeot at a stupid price but I resent that

Have you tried Fiat?  

I haven’t tried Fiat. They are reputed to be even more expensive but I will ask.

Timedout,   Fiat sometimes have cheaper prices for the same parts but not always, worth checking as suggested.   Have you tried some of the online breakers? Worth putting a few request details online with them and see if something turns up. Is the bracket beyond saving or is the nylon roller damaged? If just the bracket misaligned could it be heated up and bent to ' maladjust' to fit?  
      When we bought our last van the door did require quite a slam to close. After opening and closing late at  night with all the racket  I decided to adjust and yes there is adjustment available but as you no doubt know the door is heavy and care required ! Took about an hour but it ended up almost closing on it's own so it can be done. Surprising how much crude builds up on the rollers and  axle spindles so worth cleaning and lubricating these too, ours were not rolling but rather sledging their way along the tracks!
    Pity we are still locked down as I am friendly with local Peugeot van dealers and could got their parts guy to have checked part numbers for you to try and find out the difference ,if any  , or as you say just the cosmetic plastic closing panel.

Kaspian. The main body around the small rollers is bent and the spindle of the leading small roller is loose. None of the nylon parts are damaged. I don’t have enough kit with me to fit just the new bearings. The old parts have to be drilled out and new ones peeled. Most of my tools are in storage at present. The simplest fix is new roller assemblies.  The really cheap ones look a bit iffy but there are some respectable suppliers with pattern parts. Was just hoping someone else may have investigated this before.

Ah so it's not just wear but must have seen damage at some time . Still worth a free request on one of the breakers/ parts sites . You never know your luck,  we turned up with  a window winder/ motor assembly that was over £500 at the dealers for around £30 recently. Then again if reputable , I cant see a spares company denying a refund if their pattern parts dont fit your vehicle so  maybe worth a punt if big savings to be made.

I don't know if it is still the same but I was once told by a parts dept manager to shop around at different dealerships as they charge different prices for the same products.
Pete

I can provide an answer to my own question now and I hope it will help others who have problems with the sliding door guides on X250 base van conversions.
The metal part of the middle door roller is identical for the window van and the panel van. The only difference is the plastic cover that is held on by one 10mm nut. Note that the upper and lower roller guides are the same for both window and panel vans. 
The choice I had was £96 for a middle roller exclusively for a window van or one of the many parts available at less than £30 for a panel van. I did not want to use one of the dodgy Chinese sellers on eBay so bought direct from a company called BisonParts. That company is U.K. and sells truck and van parts. The part I got appears to be from Poland but things are not always what they appear. It certainly looks like it is good quality and the fit was perfect. I just substituted the new plastic cover with the old one. 
If you have to buy any of the roller guides please be careful. Many of the internet sellers are offering the guides for the right hand side whilst most U.K. vans need the left side. Obviously, these things are handed. Don’t buy the bearings/rollers alone. They are riveted on and unless you have the right press you may end up with loose pins that give too much sloppiness to the guide. My old middle roller had loose pins and the arms on the small pins were also bent. With the new roller and a bit of adjustment my door now closes much more easily. I still have a fault with the bearing of the lower roller but the supplier is out of stock right now.
I have some photos but can’t work out how to attach them.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
The photo above is the old one removed. Note the arms that hold the small rollers are bent. The pins that the small rollers run on were also loose in the arms. Damage due to a very badly adjusted door.


Below is the new guide in place. The plastic cover fitted is the old one and this part is different on a window van. The cover is set a little further off from the guide compared to the panel van. 
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If that's all that's wrong with it, main pressing bent, & loose roller pins, then i'm afraid it looks an easy fix, i'd never buy a replacement just for that, send it to me if you like & i'll see what can be done.

Hello Timedout.  Pleased you got a result. I have a similar problem to the one you solved.
My middle slide with the plastic face is at a bit of an angle as shown by the plastic face.
Was the large nut easy to remove? I cannot shift it. Could you describe to us how you removed the lump in your photo and then replaced?  
Thanks.  IanD

Ian. The large nut is 19mm or 3/4” AF. The stud it is on has a 5mm hex socket in the top. The big nut is a lock nut and also a nyloc which is a bit belt and braces. The stud is threaded through the smaller metal plate that swings on a rivet on the bit that bolts to the door. 
Get the tools together.
1. 6mm Allen key
2. 5mm Allen key
3. 19mm open end or ring spanner.
4. Support for the door.

Put the 19mm ring spanner on the big nut. Put the 5mm Allen (hex) key in the top of the stud. Hold the Allen key still. Turn the nut with the spanner (normal thread so anti-clockwise when viewed from above). Half a turn releases the horizontal adjustment on Back edge of the door.
The roller assembly is secured to the door only by the two larger Allen screws with 6mm socket heads. Once these are off the roller assembly comes out of the track with a little manipulation.

You MUST have the back edge of the securely supported from beneath before removing those two 6mm Allen screws or you will end up in grief.

I will follow up with a fuller explanation of changing the roller and adjusting the door.

Most grateful to you Timedout for this. Mix of the large nut, Allen keyway in the top and the presence of pop rivets put me off doing anything apart from lots of grease in the trackway to stop "sledging" of the rollers - which are actually wearing away the stainless steel of the door track. I will send off for the replacement.  
To read about the door adjustment from you, will be essential; (when it is ready) - because the height of the plate on the large vertical bolt appears to be critical in reducing the wear on the stainless track.  Looking forward to your guidance.  Many thanks.  IanD

Be careful with the grease Ian !  It picks  up all the road grit and effectively becomes a cutting compound grinding away at the runners and rollers More   important to keep the runners clean and a light spray lube occasionally on all moving components.     Misalignment is common when the side door is opened especially on an upward facing slope and allowed to slam into the bump stops. Over time the hinge plates will bend causing issues with door open alarm contacts not making  correctly sending your instrument panel into meltdown as it sees you driving with an open door.

Thanks for the comments Kaspian. I have been down the route of using silicon spray on the middle track and mechanism to no avail. My initial oroblem was getting the sliding door to open. I hard to pull really hard on the outside door handle. Looked at the mechanism at the rear edge of the door and felt that the door wasnt swinging out of the curved first part of the stainless steel channel easily. - and there is wear where it is sledging on the curve. So the only solution so far is grease. I feel that replacement of the middle slider mechanism ( with guidance from Timedout) is probably the answer.
IanD

Hi Ian , silicon on spray is a poor lubricant for metal . I would try again with some light oil spray as I have had exactly your issue . The handle trips the lock and the mechanism helps to through the door a few mm outwards to initiate the whole sequence of door opening . A thorough soaking of the lock mechanism viewed from the sliding door rear end, the roller brackets etc  and middle bracket returned the door to the simplest of operations to open. Worth a try at least without seeing your door first hand.

hi kaspian just a quick one.
are you saying lubricate all the above mechanisms in situ with light oil spray? ours " as I remember" is a little stubborn too open.
and you have had very good results just with the maintenance spray.
thanks

In my experience the stubbornness to open is misalignment of the door locks and catches. These are at the back of the door, one mid height and one near the top.

Yes Babian , I have now managed to make both our van s'  doors a lot better only by using a spray oil. Close with a light touch and open with minimal effort .  The actual catch to handle  link cable cable  can also  be adjusted at the bottom of the door where the cable is attached to the lever.  Timedout has obvious damage to his brackets but if you are lucky with undamaged brackets  a good bit of lubrication works wonders . Include the door lock too at the rear edge of the door where the actual lock mechanism is.

kaspian , thanks for your detailed instructions I'll give it a try.

Adjusting
Assumes the door rollers guides have been secured.

Do not shut the door yet. Slide it slowly through its full travel. Is everything smooth? Push it near to the closed position gently. Look at the shut lines all round the door. All door edges should be parallel to the body. They won’t be until you tweak the adjustment.
The door adjusts from all mountings. Vertical is only on the upper front and rear middle guide. In/out on all three.
I started with the front and then adjusted the rear. I also had to adjust the front edge socket things and the two locking catches at the back. All  of the latter are mounted in the body.
The approach I followed was to have the door parallel to the body in each plane and then adjust the lock catches to suit. It worked for me. The two locators at the front of the door are held with 10mm head bolts. These need to align with the conical pins in the door edge and you adjust them in/out to pull the door in as it closes against the seal.
The centre back lock and catch is held by the T40 torx screws. The top rear pin is has a hex nut base but perversely it seems to be 1/2” AF, I used a 13mm but it is a sloppy fit. I found that the upper pin was the thing that made the door stick a bit on unlocking and it also has the least range of adjustment.
Adjusting the locks is an iterative process. The idea is they do not fight against the roller guides but do hold the door against the seals evenly. If the door is not held in snugly the central locking won’t operate. When driving the door open alarm with go on and off too. Really annoying.

When we got our van all these things were hopelessly out of whack, hence the damage to the roller guides.

Brilliant and coherent article Timedout.  I have yet to start mine, but the confidence you have created makes it seem less daunting.
Many thanks. IanD