Re: won't start

by inspiredron Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:03 am

I too have a cheap (Lidl) intelligent charger and thought about putting it in the battery compartment under the floor next to the battery. A great idea but impractical as it does not charge unless you press the on button on the charger

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The point about which battery is charged when is clearly covered in the Habitation manual which has a comprehensive section on the EC328
I have found that on EHU with the vehicle battery being used/charged if the engine is started the panel will switch off but the vehicle battery blue led will stay on and remain on when the engine is turned off.
Another quirk of the EC328 panel is that whenever the engine is switched off the panel backlight comes on and STAYS ON PERMANENTLY. As soon as any button is pressed it reverts to the normal 'out after a few seconds' mode. Not an issue if you need to switch on Jan electrics but if you park and walk off in storage then that small drain could be significant and backlight service life reduced.

by Peter Brown Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:45 am

Gassygassy, to answer your first question need to know EC328 or 500?

by gassygassy Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:07 am

Thank you Peter. up!

The Sargent is a 328.
I think my trouble is that I have had so many different motorhomes that I assumed that the Nuevo would be the same as all the others: if you plug the hab into the mains, then the leisure battery would charge without doing anything else. Also on pre-computerised vehicles the engine battery would last months before discharging sufficiently not to start the engine.
I looked inside the Sargent and noticed what tends to be called 'the cheap Chinese' solar regulator. I need to investigate the wiring because I had a specialist solar company install an extra 100w panel in series with the existing 30w panel, and they fitted an expensive blue regulator - the one with MPPT or whatever the initials are. I have myself previously fitted solar panels and the generic 'cheap Chinese' regulator which has outputs for hab battery and for engine battery and you can choose the percentage charge that goes to each battery. I have never had any problems with these keeping both batteries charged. However I think the installation company must have by-passed the cheap chinese regulator inside the Sargent because in the sun, only the hab battery gets charged. I'll have to investigate the wiring and make a decision if I would rather have the cheap chinese regulator that charges both batteries.

by Cymro Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:14 am

Gassy: I have the same van as you. Here's a note I wrote in 2015:

Charging the batteries: as advised by Sargent.

1. The solar panel operates whether or not the mains charger is on, and whether or not the control panel is on. It just works whenever there's sunshine. It charges both batteries simultaneously. It's meant to be sufficient to keep the two batteries topped up, depending on season and background load (such as alarm system if activated). We bought the uprated solar panel, not the 30w standard but 80w (or maybe 100w).

2. The mains charger is controlled by two switches. On the EC328 inside the wardrobe is the master (orange?) switch. There is also a Battery button on the control panel (near rear door). That Battery button selects which battery will be charged by the mains charger. Only one battery can be charged from the mains at a time. If the control panel is switched off (or if the panel is on but the Battery blue LED button is not illuminated) then the mains charger will charge the leisure battery as long as the orange switch is on. That is the default. But when the control panel is on and the blue LED is on, then the vehicle battery will be charged from the mains.

3. The mains charger will bulk charge first and then float charge to maintain the chosen battery over an extended period. It's similar to the Airflow or Ctek smart charger.

4. Thus, when at home with mains available, the ideal would be to use the inboard mains charger to maintain the vehicle battery, and every week or so, select the leisure battery for it to have its charge. Any solar charge would be ignored – there's not much available in the winter anyway, given that the panel is in the shade of the house.

5. On site, it will be necessary to charge the leisure battery because various items (pumps, lights) run on its 12v supply.

Above is distillation of various emails with Sargent and experience!

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by Peter Brown Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:37 am

Just to add to Cymro and I must emphasise, the EC325, EC500 and EC700 are completely different in operation.

A few months ago I replaced my faulty EC325 with an EC328. On the EC325 if the mains charger was switched on and irrespective of which battery was selected to charge, the solar charging to both batteries was disabled. I confirm that with the EC328 the solar charging is applied to both batteries all the time irrespective of any switching. I find the Solar charge controller in the 2019 EC328 much more effective than that in the 2011 EC325. My van is on an open drive at home and charge of both batteries by solar when not in use is effective all year round as long as the panel is not covered with snow or fog. I therefore don't need to use the mains charge at MY home.

by bonnie Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:18 pm

Hi again
Thank you all for your input.
I'm learning a lot. I've always found electricity stuff much more confusing than mechanical stuff, and I'm not familiar with some of the terminology.
Please may I update and give further data?
I have located the "Sergeant Unit" ( didn't know that was. what it was called) in the back of the wardrobe. EC325
I've been re reading the vehicle handbook.
been off charge overnight

I'm still a bit confused.
The battery current reading appears to be a negative number. According to the handbook this means that the battery is being drained by something?
This is what control panel by the habitation door is saying.
WITH EHU CONNECTED
left LED on Rt LED off
leisure battery 13.4v good
vehicle battery 12.4v good
batt current -17.6
left LED on, rt LED on (allegedly charging vehicle battery)
leisure battery 13.4 good
vehicle battery 13.5
batt current - 15.9
EHU DISCONNECTED
leisure battery 13.2
vehicle battery 12.6
batt current -18

Any info much appreciated.
Alison

by PLOUGHLIN Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:30 pm

re battery current readings, these appear erroneous, try recalibrating the current reading, you'll find the procedure in the manual section 7 under the "common problems" table.
The leisure battery readings without charger, are they immediately after switch off charger or after some time to find a rest value? seem a bit high if the latter.
The vehicle battery is fairly well charged, provided voltage doesn't drop much after a while, it seems OK.

by Peter Brown Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:41 pm

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ai1_HDcUqJgQhqlWQdvRgxod_wPc7Q?e=keI3zs

The link above is to the EC325 Operating Manual and will work until 4th April so download a copy if you want it.

The EC325 charges in a different manner to any other Sargent unit and the current tech support staff at Sargent are ignorant of this - I had to send them a copy of their own literature before they would accept that and they then realised they were unable to support it.

The current monitor needs to be calibrated see top box on page 13 to find out how to do this. When looking to measure charging current, ensure all 12v devices are switched off and bear in mind any energy supplied by a solar panel will be summed in.

When you switch the charger from leisure battery to vehicle battery or reverse as in the first two scenarios above, wait at least 15min before taking a voltage reading. Bear in mind that the readings shown by the Sargent unit are with the battery on-load and cannot be compared with standard battery voltage specifications that are measured with the battery open circuit.

After you disconnect the EHU, you should also wait 15 mins before taking a voltage reading with all 12v devices switched off.

The voltage readings you give above are not abnormal but will be more realistic when taken as I suggest above, as will be the current readings when the system has been recalibrated.

by bonnie Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:08 pm

Thank you so much for your advice.
I have recalibrated on the panel, and it's now reading approx 1 amp.
Both batteries seem good.
I'll leave it off charge overnight and see what the readings are in the morning, taking into account the advice you have given about leaving time in between.
Thanks again.

by PLOUGHLIN Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:14 pm

bonnie wrote:Thank you so much for your advice.
I have recalibrated on the panel, and it's now reading approx 1 amp.
Both batteries seem good.
I'll leave it off charge overnight and see what the readings are in the morning, taking into account the advice you have given about leaving time in between.
Thanks again.

by gassygassy Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:41 pm

This is all good stuff, thank you bonnie and ploughlin. Sunday is a day of rest tomorrow - plus we lose an hour of sleep! fedup

So I will have to wait for another day when I have some time to do something!
I'll investigate what the garage has done to my solar charging system, I think they must have disconnected the cheap Chinese two-battery charger inside the 328 so as I have never before had problems with these chargers if I find it disconnected I will reconnect it to the leisure and vehicle batteries. The expensive fancy MPPT (or is it MMPT?) solar regulator only charges the leisure battery, leaving the engine battery to gradually fade away and die. I would rather have the cheap Chinese regulator that does both.

by glyne lock Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:33 pm

Gassygassy
The solar control regulator fitted from new is only 10 amp and has solar in+ and - and the output + and - the same as you well have on the mppt controllers . Some mppt controllers are able to put 1amp to the vehicle battery to keep it topped up and any extra amps go to the leisure battery .you can’t go more than 10 amps as this is all the Sargent system can take so maybe why yours is direct to the leisure battery. If you try putting more than 10amp may damage the Sargent system

by gassygassy Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:48 pm

I have looked through the 328 grille and seen what I thought was the standard 'cheap chinese' regulator with the two outputs - leisure and engine. But I might be wrong. I think I have read somewhere that its maximum rating is 130 Watts which is what the sum of my two panels is now. That would only be reached in southern Spain in summer of course, though I wouldn't want a small fire inside there!
I'll have to trace where the new solar wiring goes. I could send the original 30W panel to the engine battery and the new 100W panel to the leisure battery - actually I have two very expensive Duracell 100W leisure batteries in parallel. The more I think about it, the more I think I should have spent the money on a rear bike rack and a couple of bikes!

by PLOUGHLIN Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:58 pm

The solar charger in the EC328 directs power to both batteries simultaneously. Don't know how it splits the available charge though, maybe by sensors.

by glyne lock Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:15 am

The vehicle battery wii not charge until the leisure battery reaches a set voltage then the solar charge will go to the vehicle and he has two leisure batteries so will take longer to get to full charge .when you charge on the mains and then turn off you will see the solar float from leisure to vehicle

by PLOUGHLIN Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:31 am

I am only quoting what Sargent say in their manual, Simultaneously, which usually means at the same time.

by Cymro Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:00 am

PLOUGHLIN wrote:I am only quoting what Sargent say in their manual, Simultaneously, which usually means at the same time.

When I bought my Nuevo, I wrote to Sargent about the possible use of / need for my smart battery charger. In their comprehensive, clear and helpful reply, Sargent confirmed what Ploughlin says: the solar panel charges both batteries [vehicle and habitation] simultaneously.

With the EC 328, it is the inboard mains charger which only charges one, or other, of the batteries. As has been explained here, you chose which to charge by means of the battery button on the control panel: with blue light on, the vehicle battery gets the charge.

Of course, in addition, at the same time the current (if any) from the solar panel is also being delivered (split I do not know how) to both batteries, irrespective of what's chosen on the control panel.

Cymro

by glyne lock Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:24 pm

in the ec 328 may have the dual solar regulator fitted. the ec 500 and ec700 has only a single out put regulator fitted

by gassygassy Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:48 pm

Righteeho, as this thread has diverted to solar charging will you forgive me for following that avenue?
I have a 328, a 100W panel and the original 30W panel. The 100W was fitted by a specialist garage along with two Duracell 100 AH batteries and the expensive blue MPPT controller and they said they had wired it in series with the 30W panel. That turns out not to be true.
I have just taken everything apart and found the following:
*With a dark caravan cover over the panels I measured 3.9v at the end of the 30W panel cable (open circuit with the plug out of the 328), and 5.2v at the end of the 100W panel, while it is connected to the blue regulator.
* The 30W panel cable is still connected to its correct plug going into the 328.
* The 100W panel is connected to the blue MPPT controller input, not in any way connected to the 30W panel cable.
* I removed and took the cover off the 328 and the controller inside is indeed the standard 'cheap chinese' regulator with the solar panel, engine battery and leisure battery connections all wired up.
What I don't know and would like to, is what is the normal connection from the 328 to the leisure battery, and to the engine battery? I have to conclude that the company that fitted the new 100W panel must have disconnected the 328 output to these two batteries, (or at the very least to the leisure battery as there are no wires connected there that do not come from the Blue MPPT controller) and I would like to find the wire. The engine battery may still be connected, I don't know. Presumably it is behind the heater in the wardrobe and if I can find it I would like to connect it to the engine battery so I would have the 100W panel charging the leisure battery and the 30W panel charging the engine battery. Then I would have to poke about and find out what effects the switches on the control panel by the door have.

by gassygassy Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:50 pm

glyne lock wrote:in the ec 328 may have the dual solar regulator fitted. the ec 500 and ec700 has only a single out put regulator fitted

I can confirm, having taken the 328 out and disconnected it and removed the cover, that it does indeed have the 'cheap chinese' regulator with outputs for engine and leisure batteries.
I would love to know the wiring diagram for the two outputs of this regulator - how they are connected to the engine and leisure batteries.

by glyne lock Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:43 pm

130 w is to much for a 10 amp controller should only be 120w max technically
10 amps x 12volts =120wats sargent do say 120 w max .you have said putting the 30w to the engine battery that would be best

by gassygassy Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 am

Thanks glyne. I am a retired electronics engineer so I agree with you that I wouldn't want the total solar power running through the 'cheap chinese' regulator, although of course they wouldn't be generating that power except at noon on the south coast of Spain. Do you know where I can find a circuit or block wiring diagram which shows how the control panel interfaces with the 328? Something happens to the solar charge after it leaves the 'cheap chinese' regulator (I think I will refer to it as the dual regulator to save typing) because the battery output wires from it a)are thin and b) apparently don't go to the batteries. One way of switching the outputs would be for the 328 to do the voltage monitoring and switching, and that switching could be done by control signals from the control panel by the door. Is that how they are routed? What puzzles me is that I can't find the cable that used to connect to the leisure battery. The garage that installed the new panel must have disconnected the cable from the dual regulator output of the 328. I suppose it must be lurking on the floor behind the Truma boiler which means taking that out. Ah well, there isn't much else to do with our time now, is there?
If anyone knows what the LB and engine battery cables from the 328 look like could they let me know please so I can go and do some re-wiring? Thanks.

by glyne lock Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:59 am

gassygassy
have you read the post solar panels page 2 by greyhound in the ec500 the wires in black have got small print as to there purpose

by gassygassy Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:57 pm

Thank you glyne. I have now read and printed off Greyhound's post and I will go and modify mine accordingly. Although, he has the EC500 and I have a 328 but that doesn't matter. I think I might even remove and sell the expensive MPPT blue controller: I have used two or three of the chinese ones and found them totally satisfactory.
I'll have to remove the Truma boiler under the wardrobe though, to find out where the old wire for the LB has been put. I think I will remove the chinese controller from the 328 and fix it to the rear wardrobe wall, and run cables from there to the engine and hab batteries.
Actually - here's a thought, I now have the original 30W panel and a new 100W panel. I suppose I shouldn't just parallel the two because they wouldn't be giving equal outputs ? If I use the chinese regulator to just charge the engine battery would it affect it just to connect only the engine battery and leave the LB output o/c? I might pm greyhound . . .

by Roopert Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:02 pm

gassygassy wrote:
If anyone knows what the LB and engine battery cables from the 328 look like could they let me know please so I can go and do some re-wiring? Thanks.

There are no separate wires for solar charging. The EC328 has the split charge relay built into it, so solar charging simply uses the same wires for solar charging. The leisure battery is on pins 1 and 4 of the six-way connector on the underside, and the engine battery on pins 2 and 5 (I'm fairly sure that the pairs of pins are just commoned together, but memory is a bit hazy on that point).

As far as I'm aware, the EC328 does no switching at all of the output from the (on mine) EPIPDB-COM dual channel controller - all of the charging logic is within the solar controller.

My own personal experience of that controller - having taken mine out and replaced it with an expensive German one - is that it functions very well, and I haven't seen any huge gains in charging performance from the change. The only deficiency that I've found was that it is a little less able to control voltage transients during fast-changing solar panel output - with the more expensive controller I no longer get occasional control panel alarms, though they were infrequent enough to not cause me problems anyway.