2009 Nuevo Classic - Tyre Pressures

bolero boy wrote:just as an extra parallel, Michelin will give customers pressure levels for specific front axle weights but will NOT give the same info for rear tyres, rather just insisting on 79 ish being the 'only recommendation'...perhaps based on the fact than many rear axles are loaded to the max...

The Michelin advice that Paulmold brought to our attention says that the rear tyres must be 5.5 Bar (79'ish psi) and the front tyres must be in line with the vehicle manufacturer's recommendation which for us is 5.0 Bar.

i read the above info in a reponse from Michelin posted on MMM awhile back...

if you put 5.0 bar in a light (3.5t) van it will shake your teeth out..

bolero boy wrote:i read the above info in a reponse from Michelin posted on MMM awhile back...

if you put 5.0 bar in a light (3.5t) van it will shake your teeth out..

I agree.  Progressive loading of the Nuevo is likely to result in the rear axle limit of 2000 kg being met before any other limit, at which point the front axle can't be more than 1500 kg as the GVW is 3500 kg.  I understand why the rear tyres are set at 5.5 Bar because it corresponds to a 2000 kg rear axle load which can be reached quite easily and its safer for a tyre to be over-inflated than under-inflated, but I can't understand why Peugeot hasn't set the front tyre pressure around a maximum front axle load of 1500 kg, which using Continental's worst case rear axle figures would give a front tyre pressure of 3.75 Bar (using their front axle figures it would only be 3.25 Bar).  We must assume they have their reasons but it would be nice to know what they are.

There is a question in the new MMM that just popped through the letterbox regarding resetting the tpms in Peugeot vans. This response was received from Peugeot UK....
"The TPMS comes preset from the factory to the standard commercial vehicle specification. Converters can work with tyre manufacturers to determine what lower pressures the tyres can be run at when the conversion is complete and can have the TPMS modified to this by the Peugeot technician as part of the pre-delivery inspection. The converter would then fit a new sticker over the Peugeot label on the B pillar denoting the new pressures. For safety reasons we do not amend the tyre pressure within a dealership unless the above protocol has been followed"

It beggars the question - why don't AS follow this protocol?

They don't do a PDI?

Paulmold wrote:There is a question in the new MMM that just popped through the letterbox regarding resetting the tpms in Peugeot vans.

Was it in the March or April edition?

April.

Thanks Paulmold.  I haven’t seen the April edition but the March edition repeats the advice that the tyre pressures should be matched to the actual axle loads.  However it states that this does not negate the reader’s responsibility to obtain professional advice before acting.  In my view and in the light of Peugeot UK’s statement, this professional advice must come from Auto-Sleepers.

April edition should be in shops Thursday. I subscribe so it comes early.

I have just received the following advice from AS:

[ltr]Good evening Mr XXXXXXX,[/ltr]

[ltr]No problem at all and please be advised that Alan Curry is our Customer Service Manager and I’m sure it will no surprise that this topic comes up quite frequently, but the base vehicle and tyre manufacturer’s are the only people you should rely upon, so please see detailed below our advice as follows:[/ltr]


[ltr]Tyre pressures is a subject that gets raised by consumers on a regular basis and we offer the following guidance to make sure the end user, you, gets the information they need to ensure they are using the correct pressure.[/ltr]


[ltr]Vehicle manufacturers, for example Peugeot, Mercedes and VW, will have selected a tyre size, type and pressure suitable for that vehicle when they designed it. The tyres and pressures they specify will cope with all the loads the vehicle will carry up to its Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM).[/ltr]


[ltr]The MTPLM is sometimes known as the Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) or the Maximum [/ltr]
[ltr]Authorised Mass (MAM) and is the maximum the vehicle can weight when fully loaded.[/ltr]

[ltr]This weight, along with speed, is a key factor when determining the tyre specification and at what pressure it should be inflated to. It makes no difference to the tyre pressure if the vehicle is being used as a delivery van, a builders van, a minibus or a motorhome.  [/ltr]


[ltr]The base vehicle manufacturer will have marked the tyre pressures they recommend on the vehicle and Auto-Sleepers will never recommend deviating from these figures. However, if you refer to the tyre manufacturer Customer Services they may be able to provide a high to low range in which you may safely operate the tyres and this may allow you to run at lower or higher than the standard pressures. Note that should you go down this route the will want to know what your axel weights are (front and rear) what your actual weight is when you are travelling with all your kit, what type/make/model of vehicle you have and what is its MTPLM. [/ltr]

[ltr]A couple of trips to your local public weighbridge will give you all the weights.[/ltr]


[ltr]Please bear in mind that the base vehicle manufacturer and the tyre manufacturer are the only experts you should take notice of. There are plenty of so called "experts" who will be desperate to offer you advice but it's your responsibility to make sure your vehicle is roadworthy and not adhering to the correct tyre pressures may render you liable to prosecution and/or invalidate your insurance.[/ltr]


[ltr]Hopefully this will help you in obtaining the information needed.[/ltr]

[ltr]Kind regards[/ltr]

[ltr]Dave[/ltr]

[ltr]Dave Williams[/ltr]
[ltr]Sales & Marketing Director[/ltr]

[ltr]Sent from my iPad[/ltr]

Could I ask those who have had their TPMS low pressure limits reduced if a charge was raised and if so, how much?

I was obliged by my Peuegot dealer to sign a disclaimer, and to pay £38 for the privilege!

Cymro

Thanks Cymro.  I had read on other forums that the charge could be £200 or even £300!  In the light of the latest advice from AS and Peugeot UK, no disclaimer should be required; I certainly won't sign one.

It seems to me that the TPMS should be set around the axle loads as the motorhome drives out of the factory which should also be the delivery tyre pressures.  These low end pressures may need to be returned to for day trips, when taking the motorhome in for repair/servicing and selling it.  The high end tyre pressures needed when the motorhome is fully loaded will not set off the TPMS.

Goodness me! That is startling news - and thank you very much for sharing it.

It presents a dilemma. The base vehicle and converter are saying "Only follow our reccomended tyre pressures". If those are the same as the tyre manufacturer's reccomendation, then fine - no problem. But if the tyre manufacturer says "For your measured axle weights, use these pressures" and if they differ from the base vehicle manufacturer's, then the owner has a dilemma. Whom to follow?

Which begs the question "why do they differ?" - if they do.

My instinct remains to listen to the advice of the tyre manufacturer. Their product is my only point of contact with the road - about the area of a hand-print per wheel. Better get that right. But I do so with less confidence!

Like coronovirus, this will run and run....

Cymro

Cymro wrote:
Which begs the question "why do they differ?" - if they do.

I agree.  I have been trying to find this out  from Peugeot through Peugeot UK Customer Care but they are non-tech and won't give a sensible answer.

Peugeot UK finally got back to me with the following:

vehicles are supplied to the converter with the PSA homologated tyre pressures set. If the converter during their conversion having spoken to the tyre manufacturers reduce the tyre pressures in line with what has been agreed with the tyre manufacturer, this is set at the point of conversion and forms part of the Stage 2 homologation.  
 The converter would then fit their own Tyre pressure sticker in the vehicle denoting the new tyre pressure settings. 
 this is the only time the tyre pressures can be reset.  
 If the converter homologates the stage 2 with the standard factory pressures these cannot be changed. 

I have gone back with further questions - like why did they go for 5.0 bar front and 5.5 bar rear - but have no idea if I will get answers.  As some owners are running their motorhome tyres at the base vehicle plated levels because the converter hasn't changed them (or the TPMS) and others are running their tyres at the levels recommended by the tyre manufacturer, and only one can be correct, I have raised it as a public road safety issue with the DVSA who are investigating.  I will report back if anything comes of it.

Well done, Caraman.  This issue is of significant concern to many of us on the Forum and, I dare say, to the much wider motorhome fraternity.  It is about time that we had a definitive, reasoned decision. I just hope that your (excellent) reference to the DVSA will reach an appropriately senior officer, and that he/she will seek background from sources such as the Forum.

My concern is that, when they realize the legal implications, they don't give a definitive decision but fudge it.

But again, thank you very much for your persistence and for making the reference.

Cymro

w
a converter might 'recommend' tyre pressures based on the maximum axle weight allowable for that vehicle.....say for 1850kg front and 2000kg rear (light chassis) even knowing that the vast majority of users will never upgrade beyond a total MAM of 3500kg.

however, with todays 3.5t vans being quite long and with long overhangs and running a just about the max on the rear axle, perhaps they are hedging their bets...

it would be good to see if a converter specifies different rcommendations for vans at the opposite end of the weight scale despite using the same chassis....or whether they just specify the max for all models.

...or we as sensible owners could weigh our vans, front and rear, and set the pressures to that which is recommended by those who make the tyres.

...dont we all, as sensible car owners, ensure that (say) fully loaded estate cars have different pressures to when we run them as lightly loaded two seaters?

the point is, the converter cant know how we load our vans, some have many options fitted, have garages full of ebikes, motor scooters, bbq, levellers etc, along with two large gas bottles and full water tank etc, while others might travel with an empty garage, no fresh water etc...

these two vans could vary in weight by 300kg or so...

the 'best' (safest, most appropriate) tyre pressures for both cases above cannot be the same.

only the owner can measure that specific loading at a weighbridge and then set their tyre pressures accordingly.

I agree with you bolero boy.  There is a bit of a legal problem - if the plate says 5.0 bar front and 5.5 bar rear that's what it should be.  If it was bracketed with a high and low pressure for a high and low load, that would be fine but it isn't bracketed.  The second problem is that if you run at the lower pressures recommended by Continental for the load it sets off the TPMS which Peugeot won't adjust if AS don't don't speak to Continental and as a result re-plate the vehicle, which AS has said they will not do.  So I have to run my vehicle at 5.0 bar front and 5.5 bar rear even though Continental has said this is overinflated which as we know compromises road safety, increases tyre wear, is uncomfortable and reduces the front wheel traction on wet grass.  I could nudge my pressures down to a level that doesn't trigger the TPMS but to me that's just a fudge.

just to add, my van unladen weighs around 2650kg and if i was running at 70+ psi front and 80 rear the van would be bouncing all over the road and handle like a pig....
as my van weighs 3420kg all up and my axle weights/pressures are as follows 
ContiVanco Camper 225/75 R16 (CP*) 116 R tyres. 
  
Front Axle: 1600 Kg - 3.0 bar/ 43.5 psi (max weight for pressure given = 1730 kg) 

Rear Axle: 1820 Kg - 3.75 bar/ 54.3 psi (max weight for pressure given = 1840 kg)  

putting in the maximum axle weights for a light 3.5t chassis of 1850 front and 2000 rear, this is what Tyresafe came back with..

53psi (3.67 bar) and 80 psi (5.5 bar)

this begs the question, with the legal maximum of 1850kg, how can any converter ever recommend anything higher than 53 psi on the front axle?

An update.  I received the following further information from Peugeot UK:

Out of our 3 main motorhome converters in the UK there is only 1 converter who has the tyre pressures lowered as part of their stage 2 conversion and these are set before the completed vehicle leaves their factory. 
  
Auto-Sleepers say that “Peugeot are aware of the intended use of their vehicles when they are supplied” Peugeot supply the vehicle conforming to the first stage type approval requirement, it is the convertor responsibility to make sure the tyre pressure meets the vehicle load after conversion, therefore the vehicle should comply with the second stage Type Approval requirement.” 


I have shared the above with Auto-Sleepers who are also aware I have initiated an investigation through the DVSA Vehicle Safety Branch.  I have provided the investigating engineer with all the information I have.  I suspect the investigation is being hampered by furloughed staff in Auto-Sleepers and Peugeot.

Another drip feed of information/advice I have just received from the C&MC:

The very high ‘standard’ pressures for CP tyres relate to advice issued by Michelin (who make many of those tyres), and which is often reiterated by converter without further thought. It only applies to Michelin CP tyres. Other manufacturers of such tyres (e.g. Continental) take a different view, which is that pressures should be related to the load the tyre is required to carry. My view is that I prefer Continental’s approach, especially where the weight on the motorhomes rear axle is not that great. I would go with the Continental figures.

Another drip feed, this time a very important one just received from Continental.  

The ETRTO – the European Tyre & Rim Technical Organisation - stipulate that single axle CP rear tyres must be inflated to 5.5 Bar regardless of the actual rear axle load. This applies to both Michelin and Continental Tyres.

So we have all been misled by Continental into thinking that we can vary our rear tyre pressures in accordance the actual rear axle load.  Those running their single axle rear CP tyres at less than 5.5 Bar should take note.  

Caraman wrote:Another drip feed, this time a very important one just received from Continental.  

The ETRTO – the European Tyre & Rim Technical Organisation - stipulate that single axle CP rear tyres must be inflated to 5.5 Bar regardless of the actual rear axle load. This applies to both Michelin and Continental Tyres.

So we have all been misled by Continental into thinking that we can vary our rear tyre pressures in accordance the actual rear axle load.  Those running their single axle rear CP tyres at less than 5.5 Bar should take note.  

noted, and duly ignored, im afraid....they will continue to run at 55 ish and, if questioned, they were obviously 80 when last checked and both have slow punctures...

id be interested to (try and) understand why (apparently) a front set of tyres needs to be inflated in line with axle loadings yet the rears be set at 80 (their max).

its quite possible for a light van to have its rear tyres at twice the pressure of the fronts....

anyone setting up a vehicle (almost any type of vehicle) years ago and given this extreme set up would have thought this was a recipe for handling disaster the 'advisor' had gone mad.

i doubt that Continental have been 'misleading' anyone, but something must have caused them to change their advice....id be interested to hear what that was.