Intermittent fault reversing camera

Sparks wrote:It is possible to fit a twin lens camera in place of the VEBA unit using the existing wiring. The wiring on my Bourton is 4 core, two video wires, one neutral and one positive, on the VEBA unit only one video wire is used. You will need to access the back of the existing camera to remove the retaining nut and disconnect the wiring, you will also need to remove the internal light at the front to access the wiring to the monitor and remove a connection box and modify the wiring. Incidentally the VEBA camera is only fixed to the fibre glass, I bonded in a short piece of wood to secure the twin lens cameras which are much heavier that the existing camera. Good luck

Thanks Sparks, if I could remove the existing camera and use the wiring that would be a wonderful bonus. The question is how do you remove the existing camera? I have gripped it as tight as I can and tried twisting it but cannot budge it. I am competent at wiring and electronics so the rest of it would be easy once I could get the existing camera off. I can't see any way of getting to the inside of the camera. (2015 Nuevo)
The only thing I can think of is to carefully measure the inside of the top cupboard over the cooker extractor, and drill a hole inside there to access the back of the camera.
Andrew

Not a specific answer to anyone but some notes on the Veba system/installation:

To access the rear of the camera on a panel van, remove the high level brake light; on most coachbuilt’s you will need to cut an access panel in the back of a locker.

The cable from the power supply/control board to the camera contains a voltage converter, I believe from 12v to 5v and is bespoke to the Veba system.

On my van (2011 Mercedes) the power supply/control panel is above the cab interior light alongside the unscreened connection between the radio aerial and down lead to radio. The radio interference produced by the power supply swamps the signal from the aerial resulting in poor FM radio performance and frequent loss of satellite signal to Satnav. After over a year trying to suppress this, an isolation switch was fitted in the 12v supply to the power supply and the reversing camera system is only activated when needed for reversing.

The 12v feed for the power supply/control panel is taken from the 12v supply to the fridge in the EM50. There are no guides for the fuse blades on the EM50 so it is possible to have one blade located properly and the other making contact on the outside of the socket and being intermittent when the vehicle is in motion.

On my Bourton I have a removable plastic cover approx 3" in dia in the cupboard over the extract fan, if you do not have this then unfortunately the only to access the back of the camera and wiring is to cut a hole  in the back of the cupboard. The camera is retained by one nut and spring washer so is virtually impossible to remove from outside. If I knew how I would attach a photo.

Peter Brown wrote:Not a specific answer to anyone but some notes on the Veba system/installation:

To access the rear of the camera on a panel van, remove the high level brake light; on most coachbuilt’s you will need to cut an access panel in the back of a locker.

The cable from the power supply/control board to the camera contains a voltage converter, I believe from 12v to 5v and is bespoke to the Veba system.

On my van (2011 Mercedes) the power supply/control panel is above the cab interior light alongside the unscreened connection between the radio aerial and down lead to radio.  The radio interference produced by the power supply swamps the signal from the aerial resulting in poor FM radio performance and frequent loss of satellite signal to Satnav.  After over a year trying to suppress this, an isolation switch was fitted in the 12v supply to the power supply and the reversing camera system is only activated when needed for reversing.

The 12v feed for the power supply/control panel is taken from the 12v supply to the fridge in the EM50.  There are no guides for the fuse blades on the EM50 so it is possible to have one blade located properly and the other making contact on the outside of the socket and being intermittent when the vehicle is in motion.

I checked my EM50 fridge fuse, all is OK there. One would expect another suitably rated fuse in the camera feed for safety, there is no indication of one and of course no wiring schematic or physical layout diagram. The problem could be due to failing supply voltage or video of course, I have now observed the off and on periods for several hundred miles and some very bumpy roads, on no occasion have the offs or ons seemed related to vibration or jolts from bumps.

Sparks wrote:On my Bourton I have a removable plastic cover approx 3" in dia in the cupboard over the extract fan, if you do not have this then unfortunately the only to access the back of the camera and wiring is to cut a hole  in the back of the cupboard. The camera is retained by one nut and spring washer so is virtually impossible to remove from outside. If I knew how I would attach a photo.

Hi Sparks, is there any chance you could post a photo of the plastic cover, and the dimensions from its centre to the sides of the cupboard please? I can cut a circular hole OK, but I wouldn't want to cut it in the wrong place! I would want to find a nice bit of some sort of material to make the 'inspection hatch' as well.

Hi Gassy Gassy. I will try and attach a few photo's and supply below the dimensions you requested.
LH wall to centre of hole.  155 mm
Bottom of cupboard to hole centre. 225 mm
Bottom of cupboard to camera centre. 200 mm
Hole dia approx.  87 mm
Wall thickness. 30 mm
Centre of camera outside from window surround. 285 mm
I hope this will helpful
.

That's brilliant Sparks, thank you. I think the back of the Bourton is the same as the Nuevo, I will take measurements from the rear window frame and check they match with yours before drilling.

Gassy - if you look under the shelf below your microwave you may well find one of those covers blocking an access hole at the rear left side of the shelf. That may give you what you need to block up the new and visible hole in the back of your cupboard above the cooker. Also, you might persuade A/S to send you one.
If I were you I would take all measurements from the window frame as well. On a 50mm plus hole any inaccuracies because of parallax are unlikely to matter. I will be replacing my camera in the spring but I have a smaller screwed plate and when I remove that I can see that Ma***is' contractor didn't bother with the nut!

Thanks Ron. I think my layout might be different to yours - my microwave is above the cut glass glasses holder above the fridge, and there isn't any shelf or blanking plate. I'll have to find a suitable plug and then drill a hole to match that. I've got a Rowntrees Cocoa tin lid which of course is a cardboard tin and plastic lid. It's 72mm dia so I may well use that, if my hole saw collection has a matching one. I am wary that a) if you choose the wrong size hole saw you may not find a lid to plug it with, and b) if you cut a hole too small it will be extremely difficult to enlarge it and even then you wouldn't find a plug to match. Then you would need to just screw a rectanguar plate over the hole of course. In fact if you could find a matching piece of board that would be better than a cocoa tin lid. Happy Christmas: I won't be doing the job before then anyway.

Hi Gassy. Just a thought under the off side seat on the Bourton there is a plastic cover over the access hole to the pressure regulator exactly the same as the one you want, I think you are correct and the Neuvo & Bourton are similar, so as Ron suggested you could try A/S Spares Dept.

I haven't got on open shelf either but the microwave sits between two dividers which are part of that full height fridge/glasses store/ microwave/wall cupboard full height unit. Yours sounds the same as mine. Look up, above the glasses - back left. It's an access hole on mine, presumably to assist with wiring in conjunction with the rectangular vent that lets in air behind the microwave. I used the hole for wiring a double mains 13A socket with 4 USB charging points. It didn't matter that it is surface mounted on the underside of the "shelf" and over the hole!

Thanks Sparks and Ron. I'll take a look in the glasses box. When we bought our Nuevo it didn't have any glasses, which doesn't matter to us as we don't sit around sipping sherry with little fingers stuck out so we use that space as a book shelf. I'll tip it all out and investigate, and meanwhile can I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Andrew

Lets resurrect this thread. It was August 2019 when my Rear View Camera went intermittent and I reported it to Autosleepers to be repaired as soon as possible under Warranty.

The Whale Submersible Pump problem had been running for months and was being avoided by AS as avidly as they could. Finally in December with our winter trip coming up I demanded that the Warranty work be done. Some was completed, other work couldn't be completed due to lack of bits.

The Camera problem, being intermittent, was working when I dropped the van off for the work and was working when I picked it up. AS said, "we have checked everything if plays up again Trepanning will be needed and a new cable installed in trunking under the van". I asked what have you done to try and cure the problem. "Well nothing".  Naturally the Camera failed on the way home.

My Annual Service was booked for April a fine opportunity for the Camera to be sorted. Covid19 intervened and it was mid July when finally other Warranty work was done and outstanding parts fitted.

The Camera was replaced. "Oh yes you had water ingress behind the grey bit it had rotted the connections". Again the Camera was working before arrival and was OK on the way home.

Yesterday I took the van out for the day, The first run with the new Camera. Nothing on screen just AV2 at the top right as usual when the fault is present.

When the Camera was replaced there was no Trepanning. So the 'engineer' had at least learned something about 2019 models since December 2019.

Today I decide to take a look, if you can get water ingress behind the 'grey' bit it must be removable. It seemed that I could see some black sealant sticking up along the top, so I removed the two High Level Stop Light securing screws. Hello, one small diameter countersunk screw and one bigger and dome headed, the AS Power Driver Curse had struck again, the left hand screw was over tightened and the thread in the fiberglass ripped out, so our skilled AS operative had to fit a fat one in there.



With the screws removed the 'grey bit' almost fell off.



 Not much sealing against water ingress there.

The black I could see was not mastic at all.



Not just the leads but the taped up Connectors for the High Level Stoplight were trapped in the white mastic. "You had water ingress Sir".

Yes no wonder and you didn't even bother to correct it did you. If he had have bothered to move the lead I am sure he wouldn't have cleaned the area and fitted a new strip of mastic as I did. No he just screwed it back as it was, no doubt trying to get the left hand side to bed down when he stripped the screw thread.

The Camera had been replaced, the nut that secures it had not even been tightened finger tight I could spin it with the tip of my finger. I removed the bit of insulating tape round the tiny four pin Camera plug and withdrew it. Sure enough it was dirty inside the socket, one pin was noticeably corroded I cleaned it as best I could with WD40 and a cotton bud, inserted the plug several times, still the Camera didn't work.

So two trips to Willersey and we are no nearer to having a working Camera. I have looked for connections at the front where all the wise tell us they are, under the drivers entry step, behind the dash.

I decided to remove the headlining in the Cab. I don't know what I am doing but I do know that I want the Willersey botchers in as few places as possible.
There above the headlining were the Power Connectors, an Inline Fuse, (so that is where it is, I knew there should be one somewhere) (its bound to be in the instruction book though isn't it) Video Connectors and a Filter and Fuse unit about the size of a matchbox.
Up came the Video, the Rear View on the Monitor. The whole area was touch sensitive. I narrowed it down to the bit of work that AS have to do, join the Power Out wires from the Filer box to the Red and Black leads from the Camera.



Two red in line Crimp connectors. The one on the Positive Supply badly crimped. The camera side on the right, only the wire crimped, the supply side coming from the left, only the insulation crimped. I carefully dissected the section holding the insulation the wire dropped out, a tiny, solder tinned wire laying dead center in a tube and sometimes not touching the sides. What a surprise, the bit that AS had to do, done without skill or care which had taken a year to find and generated two Warranty visits and a frustrated customer.

Do Auto-Sleepers have a death wish.

I think your last sentence should read "...generated two Warranty visits and an ex-customer."
Will you write to The Boss with your findings?

gassygassy wrote: I think your last sentence should read  "...generated two Warranty visits and an ex-customer."
Will you write to The Boss with your findings?

Well certainly never again and that will be my advice to everyone I meet.

I have voiced my concerns at all levels about the poor workmanship during the build and of the Service Dept. I have had one "that should not be so" but otherwise no one seems to care. It certainly has not stopped the AS Curse of an AS man with a Power Driver and Fiberglass.

They are still back in the plywood days regarding their skills and practices and the are not very good with plywood either.

this is an interesting video about the origins of the Ford Motor Co. Fast forward if you like to 13 mins, to see how he stopped workers from leaving after a few months, and increased production and staff retention at the same time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szEOubgj1Yc

It may be just a matter of time before more 'vans suffer from the same thing.

There are four chances of missing the wire when fitting the two joiners and no attempt made at preparing the cables to make a reliable joint. Being a pre tinned wire it should not be crimped due to solder migration, a well known problem that applies to screw terminals also.

The wire size is too small for crimping without preparation.

Do Auto-Sleepers not know it or do they just not care. 

I've noticed that some better quality wire terminations are done with 'boot laces', a bit of metal the size of the end of a shoe lace is crimped to the conductor, and is then held in place usually in a screw-down connector.
In all honesty marconi, I didn't know what's wrong with crimping a pre-tinned wire. Can you educate me? I have seen many a screw-down connection cut right through copper conductors leaving an intermittent joint, even where a mains cable came from underground into my main house fuse. So I thought it would be logical to tin the wire before screwing it down. I am familiar with connection resistances of decimals of an ohm, and the fact that any connection produces a reflected wave of the signal back down the wire, but these things are more relevant to high speed datacomms than bulky volts hammering their way around vehicles. I certainly won't use SkotchLok connectors, the bane of anyone who has a car alarm fitted by an incompetent auto electrician.

gassygassy wrote:I've noticed that some better quality wire terminations are done with 'boot laces', a bit of metal the size of the end of a shoe lace is crimped to the conductor, and is then held in place usually in a screw-down connector.
In all honesty marconi, I didn't know what's wrong with crimping a pre-tinned wire. Can you educate me? I have seen many a screw-down connection cut right through copper conductors leaving an intermittent joint, even where a mains cable came from underground into my main house fuse. So I thought it would be logical to tin the wire before screwing it down. I am familiar with connection resistances of decimals of an ohm, and the fact that any connection produces a reflected wave of the signal back down the wire, but these things are more relevant to high speed datacomms than bulky volts hammering their way around vehicles. I certainly won't use SkotchLok connectors, the bane of anyone who has a car alarm fitted by an incompetent auto electrician.

Yes those, usually brass ends that often come pre crimped onto leads are OK for going into a screw terminal. The problem of screws biting into wires is much reduced these days by using screw operated jaws. Even cheap choc block has a plate to protect the wire from the screw.

Solder migration has been a problem in 13Amp plugs where manufactures of white goods tinned appliance leads, the screw in the terminal compresses the solder which continues to flow under pressure over time and causes an intermittent joint a fire risk and safety hazard.

The other sides of the wire in the photo shows evidence of compression of the solder right up close to the insulation for about 2mm on both sides. Depending on the exact date of manufacture of my van it could have been working for 10 or 11 months before the solder migrated away from where the crimp compressed it and it became intermittent.

I had to use Macro on my Digital camera for the photo, the red insulation shows damage from my opening up the crimp but I didn't go near the wire, once the insulation was released the wire fell out. I could maybe show the compression if you are really interested. The wire diameter is too small for the crimp anyway.

Well lets do it, I would like to see what it looks like anyway. I know, sad some will say, but that is the way improvements are made, in an industry that cares about the reliability of its products.



Note the rectangular section of the tinned wire to the right which follows the same rectangular shape of the insulation. The crimp compressed the wire enough to change its shape, a fool would think the job is done, not properly because its not crimped in the correct place etc. etc. but he made an attempt and it worked for a while.

This post is not intended to contradict the concerns expressed by Marconi about the poor workmanship he has found.

Solder migration is the transport of material caused by the gradual movement of the ions in a conductor and is an issue to be addressed in microelectronics and has no relevance to this debate.

Multistranded conductors are used to manufacture flex that will be subject to regular movement and flex is used to connect appliances to plugs. For speed of assembly and to remove the risk of stray strands, manufacturers used to tin the end of flex that was to be terminated in a screw terminal. It was found that the boundary between the tinned (solid) end of the conductor and the multistranded (flexible) section was a point very susceptible to fracture so the practice was ceased with a soft metal shroud being used instead.

Tinning of a solid wire of the size being considered here will have no effect.

Peter Brown wrote:This post is not intended to contradict the concerns expressed by Marconi about the poor workmanship he has found.

Solder migration is the transport of material caused by the gradual movement of the ions in a conductor and is an issue to be addressed in microelectronics and has no relevance to this debate.

Multistranded conductors are used to manufacture flex that will be subject to regular movement and flex is used to connect appliances to plugs.  For speed of assembly and to remove the risk of stray strands, manufacturers used to tin the end of flex that was to be terminated in a screw terminal.  It was found that the boundary between the tinned (solid) end of the conductor and the multistranded (flexible) section was a point very susceptible to fracture so the practice was ceased with a soft metal shroud being used instead.

Tinning of a solid wire of the size being considered here will have no effect.

Well you are contradicting, the evidence, the history and the facts. 13 Amp plugs are not microelectronics. Microelectronics does suffer from migration and whisker growth. Here it is a flow of the soft material which continues after compression as I stated. You had better Google again.

Finally that is not a solid wire being considered here it is blatantly obvious from the pictures I would have thought that it is a stranded flex that has been tinned with solder.

It is very clear, Marconi, that you are angry with what you regard as poor workmanship by A/S both at manufacture and in the Service Dept. I cannot comment on their current performance which sounds disappointing, as I have none but merely judge from my own past experience which I regard as having been entirely satisfactory - though not without all fault.
I will however contradict your assertion that your photos of the offending crimped wires make it blatantly obvious that they are multistrand and not a single. conductor. Blatantly obvious from your own handling perhaps and maybe surprising that single conductor would be used in such a situation but NOT obvious just from looking at the photos in my opinion.
Thank you and also PB for the lesson on solder migration. I have frequently soldered multistrand cables before popping them into screw terminals over the last 60 years or so, without issues, but will in future consider the relative advantage of not doing so.

inspiredron wrote:It is very clear, Marconi, that you are angry with what you regard as poor workmanship by A/S both at manufacture and in the Service Dept. I cannot comment on their current performance which sounds disappointing, as I have none but merely judge from my own past experience which I regard as having been entirely satisfactory - though not without all fault.
I will however contradict your assertion that your photos of the offending crimped wires make it blatantly obvious that they are multistrand and not a single. conductor. Blatantly obvious from your own handling perhaps and maybe surprising that single conductor would be used in such a situation but NOT obvious just from looking at the photos in my opinion.
Thank you and also PB for the lesson on solder migration. I have frequently soldered multistrand cables before popping them into screw terminals over the last 60 years or so, without issues, but will in future consider the relative advantage of not doing so.

PB gave you a lesson on EM Electrochemical Migration a totally different subject.