Difference between symphony and a Harmony?

Hi folks,

new to forum. I have introduced myself elsewhere.
I am looking to buy a replacment van and like the look of Symphony. Mid 90s models.
I am finding it difficult to work out the differences between the Symphony and the Harmony. Is it the length?

Ideally I would like to have the two single beds without using the front seats...I have read elsewhere that this is possible but some think the duetto has longer bench seat?

if you have a few minutes please do let me know.
I had a AS rambler in beige many years ago, lots of plywwod and cushions were involved!!
thanks
Graham

As far as I can tell, the Harmony is built on a short wheelbase Boxer, the Symphony on a medium wheelbase. The Harmony has 2 forward facing rear seats which make into 2 single beds but by using the front seats. The Symphony can come with either 1 rear front facing seat and a side bench seat or 2 single front facing seats. Both variants of Symphony can make 2 single beds but by using the front seats as part. I'm pretty sure the Duetto is the same, the extra length of the Duetto giving a wider wardrobe and wider kitchen unit but I could be wrong on that one. All three make a double bed crossways by the use of infill cushions.

thanks Paul, I will start looking at symphony's

I didn't explain the single bed arrangement on the Symphony correctly. It doesn't use the front seats as part of the beds. You have to push both fronts seats as far forward as possible towards the dashboard and then use infills between them and the rear seat/bench. Whereas the Harmony uses the front seats by dropping the backs making them flat to join up with the rear seats.

Paulmold wrote: Both variants of Symphony can make 2 single beds but by using the front seats as part. I'm pretty sure the Duetto is the same, the extra length of the Duetto giving a wider wardrobe and wider kitchen unit but I could be wrong on that one. All three make a double bed crossways by the use of infill cushions.

Hi Paul & Graham
Just want to say that I can make up two single beds on our Symphony without using the front seats. Just slide both seats as far forward as they will go and use the supplied infill cushions on the front seat bases. I only use the single bed option when I'm out for a weekend with one of my sons, normally we use the double bed option.

This is done by dropping the forward facing seat flat and pulling the "sofa" seat base across the gap. The sofa back is the dropped into the space between the wall and the sofa base. This is how we use it as we are short enough (I'm 5'9") to sleep across the van.
Depending on how tall you are, you can use the infill cushions as on the single bed layout (but an extra one in between) to make a really large double and sleep lengthways.

The Tranny, and therefore the Duetto is narrower but a bit longer than the Boxer.

Not using the front seats for bed making was one of the criteria when we were looking for a replacement for our Trafic based RV50.

HTH
Frank

Addition! Paul corrected himself while I was writing this

The Harmony is definitely the short wheel base model. All the above is correct and I also remember that the Symphony has an extra wardrobe.

PB

thanks

Yes, the Harmony is shorter on a 270S Boxer base vehicle whereas the Symphony is on a 270M or, for some of the larger Diesel engined variants (please can someone confirm this) the 320M i.e 3200 kg load capacity against 2700 kg.

Our Harmony is often at it's weight limit, particularly when we had the children with us too (it's a 2 + 2 version with the high-level bed) and it had a tail down attitude on the level even when empty of our gear. Air springs corrected this and, since fitting, we've been perfectly satisfied with the van's behaviour on the road. Oddly enough though, I never saw a Symphony with the same tail down attitude, despite many/most having the same 2700 kg rating.

In defence of the Harmony, for us at the time we were choosing our van (1995) it was the only panel van option which provided beds of an appropriate length - we're both just under 6ft. True, a four-piece bed can be a bit lumpy at times, but we've always coped. We also still like the fact that both front seats swivel into 'conference' mode making it very space-efficient and airy inside - none of the internal volume is wasted or redundant, and visibility out the front over a full 180 - 270 degrees is just great.

True, the Symphony has an oven, but we've never missed it.

All I would say in conclusion is that our Harmony has been very good at what it does, and in my view this type represents a darn good value package.


Bartfarst

Bartfarst wrote:Yes, the Harmony is shorter on a 270S Boxer base vehicle whereas the Symphony is on a 270M or, for some of the larger Diesel engined variants (please can someone confirm this) the 320M i.e 3200 kg load capacity against 2700 kg.

Hi Slarti,
Our Symphony is a petrol on a 320M chassis but as you say, most are on the 270M.

and it had a tail down attitude on the level even when empty of our gear. Air springs corrected this and, since fitting, we've been perfectly satisfied with the van's behaviour on the road. Oddly enough though, I never saw a Symphony with the same tail down attitude, despite many/most having the same 2700 kg rating.

Ours had this tail down problem, and like you I fitted air springs to correct it. I've read that boxer springs get "tired" due to being loaded 12/7.

True, the Symphony has an oven, but we've never missed it.

It also has a shower/toilet compartment which I don't think the Harmony has - or has it?

Frank

boxerman wrote:It also has a shower/toilet compartment which I don't think the Harmony has - or has it? Frank

The Harmony most certainly has a 'Throne Room', and everytime I use it I think how close we came to buying a 'van without one, in this case an otherwise very nice T4 Trident. As a single or couple, it might have worked, but with a family and children, well, I'm sure we wouldn't still have it. A great place to hang wet cagoules too! Perhaps you're confusing the Harmony with the Rambler which was sans loo, but I've not seen many Ramblers on the Boxer chassis.

Interested to know you had the same 'tail down' issue with your 320M chassis Frank. Was this, as you imply, something which got progressively worse? Our's was like it straight from the showroom. The improved roll stiffness also transformed its behaviour on the road. What pressure do you set yours to Frank?

Another Symphony addition is a fold down TV cabinet/table behind the near side rear seat - a sort of head rest I always thought. I think this is because the wardrobe in the Symphony is full height so, unlike the Harmony, you can't stand your TV on top.

Bartfarst

boxerman wrote:
It also has a shower/toilet compartment which I don't think the Harmony has - or has it?

Frank

Yes it has

PB

Bartfarst wrote:
The Harmony most certainly has a 'Throne Room',<snipped> Perhaps you're confusing the Harmony with the Rambler which was sans loo, but I've not seen many Ramblers on the Boxer chassis.

Yes I was, a couple in our club have a Boxer based "Anniversary Edition" Rambler.

Interested to know you had the same 'tail down' issue with your 320M chassis Frank. Was this, as you imply, something which got progressively worse? Our's was like it straight from the showroom. The improved roll stiffness also transformed its behaviour on the road. What pressure do you set yours to Frank?

I never noticed it when we bought it (second hand) so I think it must have got progressively worse. I usually run it at about 35/40psi, but it does lose air over a week or so.

Frank

We had 3 good years in the Harmony when we first bought her in 1999, the trick is what to leave behind.
The short wheelbase is ideal for parking especially as I now have to reverse parallel park into a 22' space.
We used it in single bed form by swivelling the front seats and using the squabs for foot room. A bit of a faff but if you're on site for a few days once its done, its done. Mind you we both are under 5'5" !
We didn't miss the oven and could roast using the double skillets on the hob. I did ask if an oven could be fitted this time round but the plumbing and wiring get in the way of a simple slot in.
Bartfast, I take my hat off to you for going 2+2 in the Harmony, it must be very snug ! One point though, I've recently removed the overcab bulkhead and replaced it with a cargo net so it gives more flexible space for Mrs H's entry steps and wheelchair but the roof lining board over the main cabin now droops a little, is yours more solidly fixed ?

newterry wrote:Bartfast, I take my hat off to you for going 2+2 in the Harmony, it must be very snug !

Newterry, you are right, but it's amazing what you can get used to. We toured Europe every year with our two girls and really wouldn't have had it any other way!

I've heard it said in respect of motorcaravans: "Get the largest you can afford" but, for us, Harmony is perfect, particularly now the kids have gone their own way.

Bartfarst

The day we saw a 6 wheeler driving around Southsea all day looking for somewhere to park we knew our Harmony was the right choice. Off topic slightly, even our second van for our trip up to the Arctic Circle and down to the Tour De France was an 18' Executive and our hire van in NZ was a 16' Toyota coachbuilt. You can be pretty inventive when comes to storage.

Where did you go in the Arctic? We're hopefully heading to N Norway this summer.

Bartfarst

2003, Newcastle to Bergen, wandered up the west coast towards Alusund, across to Trondheim and eventually got on the E6 as far as the Arctic Circle (forgot to take our passports into the visitor centre to get them stamped, Doh!)
I've still got our original itinery but this is probably too far off topic for here, however I'd be more than happy to get into more detail elsewhere. eg. It's a blooming long way from Bergen to AC at 50mph speed limit, always pull over after using a fjord ferry, let the traffic go, you've got at least an hour with nothing behind you, etc. plenty more if you'd like it. Oh, and you'll need a pocket full of dosh for tolls, tunnels and ferries.
I'm not sure of the protocols, do we start a new topic elsewhere? Let me know and I'll dig out my folder which still has all my route notes etc.

watch those tolls, Last year I got caught near Oslo. No way to pay, unmanned and nil writing ,tried two cards nothing. 4 months later letter and fine from uk plc chasing fine and toll costs.Paid toll but still contesting fine.
Not tourist friendly!!
Mike

Hi, Bartfast, I've found my travel notes from 2003 and will post them on the Travel Journal section if you would still like to read where we went.
ps I haven't forgotten your generous offer to come and have a look at my 'sticky gear linkages'. In the end I gave the van to our local garage (Segensworth Motors, SO31) who did a cracking job following Diamond Dave's instructions to the letter. There has been a great improvement apart from the first change from 1st to 2nd from stone cold which needs a double de-clutch. After that its a lot easier.
Let me know about the Norway info.

Newterry,

Yes, any information on Norway gladly received. We went in 2005 but just to the southern fjords. This time we intend to strike up through Sweden before coming down the frilly bits on the Arctic coast. Of course we can't use the Bergen - Newcastle ferry any more: a casualty of RyanAir it is said.

Looking forward to hearing of your exploits in the appropriate forum area.

No problem on the gear linkage: the offer still stands if you're passing B98. 1 - 2 always grated when cold with our Harmony. Better now I have a later box in it, but sounds like something you're used to by now!

ATB,

Bartfarst

OK, I've posted some blurb on the Journals section regarding our trip, as your coming southbound, you'll have to read mine from the bottom up ! If you can afford the ferries, the views are spectacular and adds a different dimension to the trip. If you've been before you won't want my 'granny egg-sucking tips'!

I think it was our Harmony's 1st gearbox oil change ever, and they repositioned the scuttle drain. When it goes in for a full service in October I'll ask them to pay particular attention to lubing the linkages. I have read somewhere that a worn engine mount can affect the gearchange as well (recent MMM ?).
Is your Harmony a 1.9TD ? Was the newer gearbox fitted by you/garage, if so was it expensive ? I keep getting people knocking on my door asking about the van, she can still turn heads !!

Agree with you there newterry. Out Sussex duo (basically a Warwick) is a 6m van and that is as big as I would want to go.

mccormw, thanks for that. Some years ago we were in a dealership and I overheard a Dad say to his son who was looking to buy a van -'listen son, you wanna buy the biggest van you can' and I'm looking over a Starfire shouting out 'Nooooo' from the inside.
We didn't buy the Starfire (nice van though) stayed with the Harmony until we needed the Executive for our 2 specific long tours.
I always used the ability to park either on the sea front at Southsea or in the car park behind Clarence Pier as a size benchmark. By the way, Clarence Pier now has permanent height bars set at 2.0m- shame.

newterry wrote:Is your Harmony a 1.9TD ? Was the newer gearbox fitted by you/garage, if so was it expensive ?

Newterry, mine was a 2.0l Petrol and is now a 2.0HDi having had a major transfer of facelift mechanics, dashboard, harnesses and front end onto my van. This has been described elsewhere on the forum so won't go into more detail here, instead take a look at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] if you're interested. Suffice to say that it wasn't expensive, was all done by me, and it took a hell of a long time to complete.

Thanks for the journal entries on Norway - will digest and let you know how we get on!

Bartfarst

Bartfast, seen the write up on your upgrade, I'm very impressed! I expect the neighbourhood learnt a few new 'words' during the work.
I've actually found my detailed daily diary on our Norway trip with some highest passes, major fjords crossed etc.
Ball's in your court you want anymore info!!
I can also bore the pants off anyone who'll listen about NZ and visiting the Tour De France.

ps I'd love a 2.0 Hdi (and the gearbox that goes with it) in the Harmony, dribble..... but it seems disloyal to the ole girl and I can't afford it.