to charge or not to charge

This may seem like a silly question but, If I put a oil filled rad in the van over winter, this has to be on electric hook up this means that the zig charger is also on,charging the leisure battery, my question is, is it safe/good to have the battery being charged all this time? I realise that I could turn off the charger but that would lead to flat batteries.
any thoughts on this anyone? 
mike
vwt4

Could you put a timer in the equation so both the radiator and charger only come on for a few hours each day?

We put an oil filled radiator in the van overwinter that operates through a built in thermostat.     I tend to charge the battery over 2/3 days every couple of weeks
To date haven’t experienced any problems but the supply to the van is 10am

paul yes a timer is an option good idea will give that a try, Roli is your charging system a little more advanced than what is built into my van which allows you to turn off charging on a control panel? I could maybe move the on/off switch from the zig70 charger to a more accessible position so I dont have to grovel around in a small cupboard under the fridge 
mike

I never have turned my charger off on four motor homes and previously on six caravans,   never had a problem, I have two oil rads on at the moment in my vans on the frost setting. went out today  and it was a pleasure to get it in with the chill off, more comfortable in this cold weather.

Thank you Daisy Mae, will leave it on for a while  and see what happens
Mike
Vwt4

Yes ours is a different system to yours, but I had more confidence in the old systems compared with current 
With the old Zig System like others I never turned the charger off as I had more confidence in that than the current ones

Can you not switch off the battery charger on yours? On my '94 Trident there's a switch in the second cupboard under the sink for this.

Roli, thanks for reply, the older systems are simpler to use 
Peel no there is no switch in the cupboard it is on the charger its self which buried away in a small low cupboard
thanks
mike
vwt4

It might be worth having a read of this thread

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Allan at aandncaravan is a recognised expert on batteries and his website is a gold mine of useful information

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Willconquerer , thanks for the links, interesting  reading
mike
vwt4

vwt4, a pleasure.

I just left my solar panels connected 24/7/365 for the last few years without realising I was actually reducing the capacity of my batteries.

Not any more, I fitted a 7day, 12v, programmeable timer and now connect the panels to the batteries for half a day a week whilst the van is not in use. I used a solid state relay to switch the panels connection on/off, that uses an insignificant amount of power. Even half a day a week is probably more than needed.

Perhaps I shouldn't say it but... unless you have a very poorly designed solar controller, that really shouldn't be necessary. Any modern solar controller should include a multi-stage charging circuit that is designed to prevent over-charging.

The fact that there is a natural, planetary timer turning on and off the charge to your battery every 24 hours should be enough to prevent the solar charger from damaging your battery.

Willconqueror - repeat thanks for very informative link. Spent all evening reading it and still have not got through it all. It is surprising how complex a simple thing like a battery can be. That’s life!

Regards Graham

A pleasure GrahamF.


mojo, I though the subject discussed here was in respect of continuous charging, day after day without use.
 
I'm very happy with my Morningstar Sun Saver regulator; it is programmable too and highly rated.
 
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But like most solar regulators it starts to run a complete charge sequence at sun up every day regardless as to whether the battery/batteries need charging or not. This results in overcharging and the life of the battery/batteries is depleted.
 
If you read the thread mentioned above, repeated here for your convenience,
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With particular attention to the comments from Allan at aandncaravan.
 
As well as the article here
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You might start to understand that continuous, non use, charging isn’t such a good idea. Apart from shortening the life of the batteries, in the case of flooded cell batteries there will be a lot of unnecessary gassing and topping up required unless the batteries are maintenance free.
In my opinion the bottom line is........only charge when necessary. This needs to be managed one way or another. Of course you may have a different opinion.

I understand the point, but the fact is that lead/acid batteries deteriorate slowly, no matter what you do to them!

There have been decades of research and development into the maintenance charging of batteries like that, because they have been used for a very, very long time in telephone exchanges, among other places. This has led to a pretty good understanding of how to maintenance charge them without having to switch the charger on and off periodically!

With all due respect to AandA caravans, the companies that design and build professional battery charging systems probably have a combined annual R&D budget that is bigger than that business will ever turn over during the whole of its existence.

If I can make a suggestion about your implementation: I would recommend that you think twice about the use of a solid state relay to switch the solar panel supply on and off. If you haven't already done so, you should take account of the voltage drop across the output terminals that's inherent in these devices, because it is likely to cause the solar controller to have an inaccurate measurement of the battery's actual state of charge.

-mojo- as I said earlier “You may have a different opinion”
 
Sorry, but I don’t understand the meaning of your comments in respect of the discussion regarding batteries and charging methods/frequencies in Motorhomes, Caravans and Campervans. My comments are based on what I have read on Forums and on the Internet on the actual subject of this thread, i.e. not telephone exchange battery and charging systems and the like. I am only talking only about batteries and chargers specifically designed for and used in the Leisure Industry. I am a qualified Machine Tool electrician with a lifetime of experience, but, I am no expert in my own right on Leisure Batteries and charging.
 
Your knowledge is clearly far greater than mine but what you seem to suggest is in direct conflict with what is said by Yuasa, who claim to be the biggest Battery Manufacturer in the world, on their website they say:-
 
“Battery Maintenance in Non-Automotive Float Applications”
 
Batteries used in these applications should be changed every 2 years or more frequently. (Continuous charging, even from a well-controlled charging system, will result in internal degradation of the battery. This could result in the battery not giving its predicted output when required even though the battery appears to be fully-charged)”
 
Varta told me, the same thing, exactly, when I researched this subject with them and this is precisely what I have experienced myself over 12 years of Motorhoming.
 
Allan at A&N Caravan speaks from his own, many years, experience in this exact field. He gives all the information and assistance published, freely for no commercial gain and to be honest, I believe everything, he says. I personally find your comments in this respect quite cruel and un-necessary ! I hope he does'nt read what you said.
 
So please can you tell us, what are your recommendations for charging frequency for various charging methods and the basis of your own suggestions/recommendations just in the field of motorhoming. Could you also tell us what percentage of vehicle leisure systems you believe will have a charger/charge regulator that actually takes heed of “an accurate measurement of the battery's actual state of charge” before simply starting its own charge regime ?
 
I have already fitted the mentioned solid state relay quite a while ago and I consider both the current drawn and the voltage drop across the switching contacts of 0.02 volts to be insignificant for my installation which performs much to my liking. Alternatively could you tell me what sort of switch arrangement you would recommend for connecting/disconnecting the solar panels automatically please ?
 
I hope to hear of the details of your own recommendations on this subject soon.

At this time of year my solar panels activate around 7am and switch off at around 16:30, they are active a bit longer in summer.
Life is too short to wring out every bit of life from a battery, I will happily change mine every 2-3 years if required

As you suggest, our experiences will vary. My experience does not accord with yours, but that doesn't mean that either of us is wrong.

The batteries on my current van have been on charge 24 hrs/day since I bought the van over 5 years ago. The capacity is still adequate for my purposes, and not noticeably less than when they were new.

I've also had two spare batteries on charge here for over 5 years on a CTEK charger, 24 hours per day. Neither have been gassing as a result, and neither have needed topping up in that time. They are in reasonable condition, given that they are now both over 10 years old.

If you ask a battery manufacturer about this, of course they will tell you that you have to replace your batteries frequently - has it not occurred to you that it's in their interests for people to do this?

I can't answer your question about leisure battery charge systems because I have not encountered every available charging system. The charger part of the Sargent EC328 carries out a test on the batteries at each power-up. If it detects that the batteries are above a certain level of charge then it will not start a charge cycle, and will immediately switch to "float".

All of the CTEKs that I own do something similar - they bypass part of the charge programme if an initial test shows that the batteries are above a certain level of charge.

So there we have it :-
 
 –mojo- Obviously favours constant float or otherwise, but, continual charging of his 4 Batteries for his Trooper and believes that after five years of 24/7/365 charging they have retained their original capacity to be…. not noticeably different to when they were new. I would very much like to see the results of a proper capacity check of these batteries but it is not of any interest to –mojo- because the remaining capacity is adequate for his purposes. I would also be interested in the power consumption to constantly operate the charger/s for 5 years. At least solar energy is free, at the moment, until they find a way to tax it !
 
On the other hand :-
 
I do not favour constant charging. I have found just the opposite in that constant charging from either solar or mains chargers that constantly float charge batteries, creates wear and tear and slowly but surely (rapidly in some cases) depletes the capacity of lead acid batteries. This is exactly what Yuasa, Bosch and Varta say too. Yuasa say quite clearly on their website
(Continuous charging, even from a well-controlled charging system, will result in internal degradation of the battery. This could result in the battery not giving its predicted output when required even though the battery appears to be fully-charged). Anything other would be to defy the laws of physics !
 
So make of it what you will and choose your own method, I must admit most people won’t really care and do what suits them best and just replace batteries when they no longer perform as required. But, I believe it’s good to know what is really going on in order to make an educated decision on how to proceed.
 
For those who are interested, though it’s a complex subject, I think this article is really worth a read on this subject,
 
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It’s well written, easy to read and based on sound knowledge and experience as far as I can see. I hope it might be helpful as well as anything else here. I’m pleased GrahamF at least has found it interesting, that’s what forums are all about.
 
I hope vwt4 the OP, can make a good judgement too. So for me, I personally try, to only charge batteries when they need charging rather than all the time in order to preserve their capacity for when I need it and for as long as possible, but that is a bit tricky to achieve. So, if anyone has any ideas better than my all solar powered, 7 day timer and cut off relay system, then I’m all ears. There are probably really smart chargers and batteries too, for all I know but likely cost prohibitive for me.
 
-mojo- said :-

“If you ask a battery manufacturer about this, of course they will tell you that you have to replace your batteries frequently - has it not occurred to you that it's in their interests for people to do this?”
 
Good gracious are you serious? I would never have thought it, what an evil world we live in ! 
 
Well I’m done now, best wishes.

To all who replied on this post, I now know more about batteries and charging  than I ever did before, thank you
mike
vwt4

Does all this apply to cars? What about the driver who uses his car/van for 8hrs+ a day with the alternator giving an output, or like me using our cars once a week.

I go with Mojo, he has always since I have been on this Forum come up with real genuine  answers and solutions.
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Richard

willconquerer wrote:<quite a lot of interesting stuff>

As I said above, I don't really mind if your views differ from mine. The maintenance of lead/acid batteries is complicated and involves compromise. You approach is a compromise, as is mine.

In my case, the downside is the slow deterioration that even the best designed of maintenance chargers will cause.

In your case, the downside is likely to be sulphate formation on the plates, which starts to happen as soon as you disconnect from a charger. When you re-connect to the charger six days later, the sulphate deposits will mostly convert back into the electrolyte, but this may not occur across the whole of the plate surface, and where it does not, it will accumulate, reducing the capacity of the cell. If this happens, each charge/disconnect cycle will make the situation worse.

My personal view is that the deterioration due to maintenance charging is the lesser of the two evils - that's why I choose to do what I do.

You've made a different decision. That's fine by me.

Oil filled radiators sometimes leak, therefore place them onto some kind of container as a precaution.
Better than a mess on your carpets or rugs.

There is some excellent advice re leaving MH on EHU for long periods on "Outandaboutlive" forum. It even mentions cases of exploding batteries. A full explanation of why this can happen is given.

Well worth a read.

rgermain wrote:
I go with Mojo, he has always since I have been on this Forum come up with real genuine  answers and solutions.

My thoughts also.