Duetto Swindle

Hi,
I'm not pleased. You will see from my last post, that I bought a 1994 Duetto based on a Ford Transit Kombo 100L chassis. I bought in good faith, with a MOT pass, with a "mere" observation that the underside was heavily under sealed. Being 78, of the post war generation that does not normally deal in all things crooked, I naively assumed that the previous owner had taken trouble to protect the chassis from rust. Imagine my horror when it failed a month ago, with horrendous rust in all suspension points, with my tester observing that the "gunk" (his words) was covering up card board and other general crooked rust  hiding methods. I went onto the MOT History website (I only found out about this recently) and found at:  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] : (Type in M702RRC)

that it had failed on 29 April, with much the same corrosion faults; had 'miraculously' passed a week later with the observation above, and was then SOLD TO MUGGINS.

The tale of woe doesn't stop there: the welder says that although he "can" weld, the fire risk is so great that I have to remove EVERYTHING from the inside floor of the motor home  --- impossible of course. I have spent over £9000 on a crooked rust bucket and it will have to be dumped as a right off.. so much for Duettos. BTW the seller/crook is still selling duettos etc on eBay and I have now bought a Classic Hymer on a Mercedes base.

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This is so sad that these con merchants deceive innocent folks who spend their money on something to enjoy life.  This is case that puts people off buying private

Sounds like the MOT tester did not notice the cardboard covering up the rust (3rd May 2017).
Do you have any comeback on him?

Testers can no longer poke around with a big screwdriver, just a small screwdriver and bare hands, I think.

Paulmold wrote:Testers can no longer poke around with a screwdriver, it's all visual, I think.

They use a corrosion detection tool. like a plastic hammer with a pointed end. The last MOTer SHOULD have found it.

Frank

and considering he detected it a week earlier then shouldn't he have been paying close attention to that area?

Very bad luck Leonardo. We too have a Duetto that turned out to be rustier than we thought; we had a great deal of welding done underneath, and given a two year guarantee, but were not asked to strip everything out. 

I wouldn't dump it until you have tried a couple of other repairers. We are in Cheltenham, so not a million miles from you, and would be happy to recommend the company we used - a reputable body shop.

Surely Trading Standards would have taken on that case, not fit for purpose and entitled to a refund.plus the MOT tester was also responsible I would have thought.

It is a terrible situation to be in.

He's had it since September according to previous posts so don't think he's got any comeback now.

Unfortunately there's a lot of bodging to make a few £K's about - I've seen it happening in the industrial estates in my nearest major town.

However... it would have to be pretty bad to warrant writing it off. Generally Transit panels for that age van are pretty cheap to buy - though admittedly there aren't many cheap welders (or at least there aren't many that are any good!).

Mostly, body repair shops want you to remove the internal fittings, but where that is impractical they should just improvise. When I had my (Transit-based) Flair welded a few years ago, I took out what I could, and for the rest they temporarily stuffed in wet towels! This did not adversely affect the quality of the finished job.

Provided the rust is not in any diffiicult areas (e.g. the windscreen surround or the tops of the front suspension turrets) I doubt you would have to budget more than £2-3k to have a very acceptable job done, and the van would be very saleable, as Duettos are still very popular at the budget end of the market.

Let us know how you get on.

Oh come on folks, is it any coincidence that my honest tester having been obliged to put me into a position where I most likely will have to offer the Duetto "for parts", at a HUGE loss, that some earlier owner, finding himself in the same position had the problem miraculously disappear with the help of a bucket full of gunk and a lack of morals of some other tester, who then, surprise, oh horror,  found himself in the terrible position of being "Forbidden to remove any obscuring layer to test for soundness" according to his book of rules. As for "the rust not in difficult areas" here is the MOT report:

Date tested 29 May 2018

Fail

Mileage 68,669 miles

MOT test number 1768 7395 2260

Test location unavailable until further notice

Do not drive until repaired (dangerous defects):

• Front Brake disc in such a condition that it is seriously weakened (1.1.14 (a) (ii))
  

Repair immediately (major defects):

• Front Windscreen wiper does not clear the windscreen effectively both (3.4 (b) (ii))
  
• Nearside Rear Suspension component mounting prescribed area excessively corroded significantly reducing structural strength (5.3.6 (a) (i))
  
• Offside Rear Suspension component mounting prescribed area excessively corroded significantly reducing structural strength (5.3.6 (a) (i))
  
• Nearside Front Suspension component mounting prescribed area excessively corroded significantly reducing structural strength (5.3.6 (a) (i))
  
• Nearside Rear Shock absorbers insecurely attached (5.3.2 (a) (i))
  

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Surely, in order to avoid a huge loss, it is worth asking an independent Ford specialist, and/or a professional bodyshop, to give second opinions before scrapping your van? 
Our Duetto needed welding around the front suspension, and the rear suspension; at a subsequent service by our independent Ford garage, he pronounced it "some of the best welding he'd seen".  It passed the MOT with no difficulty whatsoever.

When I was looking for a Duetto on ebay earlier in the year I tried to find ones where the number plate was visible (or enough of the number to make a guess) and then used the MOT history site as noted earlier. It's quite revealing about the general state of vehicles and how well they are looked after. I found a couple around 20 years old with very minor fails and no significant advisories other than tyre wear - the one I brought had a fail in 2008 'headlight aim too high' and the rest were passes. A quick inspection underneath showed it was pretty clean - a little surface rust as expected and this will be treated with waxoyl.

Modern mig welding localises the heat quite well so I agree with other comments about getting a few opinions from other bodyshops.

Dave

leonardo1776 wrote:
that it had failed on 29 April, with much the same corrosion faults; had 'miraculously' passed a week later with the observation above, and was then SOLD TO MUGGINS.

The tale of woe doesn't stop there: the welder says that although he "can" weld, the fire risk is so great that I have to remove EVERYTHING from the inside floor of the motor home  --- impossible of course.

Don't be too hasty. I once took a chance on a Transit campervan (not Duetto) with no MOT. The price was right and too tempting to pass up. The first place i took it to pretty much condemned it as "so rotted with rust it would be impossible to find metal to weld to" etc etc. But one of the guys proved helpful and advised me to take it to a local welder, gave me his phone number and where he worked and i took it to him.

He told me he could do the welding without removing any internal fittings but was a fair amount of labour involved and charged me £450....including getting it MOT'd.

I used it for a few years then sold it 12 years ago. It's still on the road today!

My Duetto had some bodge jobs done to it, hiding significant rust.
I have gradually got on top of it, rust cut out, new metal welded in, in between trips away.
Structurally she is now sound, just some cosmetic areas left like bottom of rear door.
She passed last mot with no advisories, and will now last a lot more years before such work is needed again.
As scrap they are worthless, so always worth investigating the repair option.

Jollywalker

Our 1996 Symphony, that when I first looked at it seemed ok (and I'm reasonably experienced when it comes to old vehicles), turned out to be a bit of a rust bucket (see my intro post), and it was advertised with 'no rust'!

We got it for a very reasonable sum and figured it would need some love but after initial investigations to the magnitude of the rust had bits falling off in my hand, I was aghast. The problem was that some of the bodges were many years old and looked part of the furniture! It came with a lot of service history that mentioned some welding, I checked those bits which looked fine. I genuinely don't think the people we bought it off bodged anything but I'm sure their garage (it had a recent MOT) had said 'you might want to get rid of this!' and took a bung to give a hokey MOT even if they had a small screwdriver, they were gentle with it!

Basically, I did all the welding myself to make it right. It would have cost 1000's for someone else to do it. I don't know about the Transit based platform but on a Boxer nothing was really close enough to worry about setting fire to anything as the sills hang quite low (the front suspension mounts are internal). I'm not a hugely experienced welder and I think this worked in my favour too as you do a bit then stop and look at it while everything cools down, then do another bit. A pro welder can run a great long consistent bead of metal without worrying that they've drifted off mark etc which heats things up a lot more (very quickly!).

When I took it to get MOT'd at our garage they were very impressed and said they wished all they welding they saw was that good. I'm sure it was partly just flattery but also probably because I'm less experienced I took my time and wanted it to be as good as possible and last forever(ish)!! I'd like to add that they have a Mk2 Transit Autosleeper which they love so 'Truggy' is in good hands.

We love our van and, while it looks like you've gone on to a Hymer,  I feel empathy for you! I felt a bit ashamed that I'd been so trusting as much as anything and (while it would seem that this world gets more divisive) I like to be trusting and trustworthy and it should always be encouraged. I also feel sad that a van that could provide a lot of pleasure to someone goes to the great scrapheap in the sky. In retrospect our van was probably a basket case but now its a solid van that certainly, structurally, should last us many years to come.

In about 2.5 years we've done about 7000 miles and spent 79 nights in 'Truggy' and had many a day out too and we couldn't ask for a more suitable van. We've taken her to France (when she was rusty, when the guy was using his mirror to look underneath for bombs I felt very embarrassed is I'd pulled a lot of the rust off at that point and left some big holes!) and she did an admiral job of 1000 miles or so on the continent.

I'm waffling, too much wine on a Friday night.... but whatever van you have it needs to be loved and you need to remember the pleasure it's given you and treat it accordingly otherwise it'll end up being a nightmare for someone else. Never be the one to stick cardboard in it to save a few quid! If it ever meant anything to you then it's time to sell it on to someone who will care for it and be honest about it's flaws. What might seem a big issue to you as a seller might be viewed as a nice project by someone else as long as they know the truth.

It would be nice if there was a 'sticky' for rusty bits to be aware of as a potential buyer! Transits and Boxers especially. I know there is a mountain of experience here if you search for it but sometimes a little bit of easy to find information can save someone an awful lot of grief.

Right I'll shut up now.... time for bed!

Duetto now for sale on eBay as a ''project'  - £7000 !!

Our old duetto has had  2 advisories in the last 11 years and still going strong ( we get updates from the new owners.)  I did get some welding done but mostly for cosmetic reasons.

Yes m my Duetto is on eBay as a 'Project' for £7000 ONO, I have had an offer of £3500!!!
The practice continues: the latest on eBay is a T reg Duetto with the following MOT history, I need make no observations, they should be obvious!!:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Presumably same seller ?

No, this seller is in Scotland, so this practice is nation wide!!! Just be aware.

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Pity the mot stations are not shown as I would report them to VOSA.

leonardo1776 wrote:Yes m my Duetto is on eBay as a 'Project' for £7000 ONO, I have had an offer of £3500

That's because you seem to have mixed up two things in your Ebay advert: your frustration at the person that sold it to you, and your desire to sell it. You should not confuse these two things in your advert. You are trying to sell it.

In your advert you say that it has "Bad corrosion". You don't need to say that - you should stick to the facts, just say that the last MOT found corrosion, and let the buyer decide how bad it is. While it's true that some of the interior may need to be removed in order for it to be welded, that's for the buyer to do their research on - you don't need to tell them. That's what "caveat emptor" is all about, and why some people are better at buying motorhomes than others.

Please don't take this the wrong way. Yes, it is criticism of the way you are listing it, but I'm saying it with good reason: if you continue to focus your advert on the feeling that you have been conned, it is likely to put buyers off. If you can put the "I've been conned" reaction behind you and reword the advert in a more neutral way, a better sale price is likely.

Incidentally £3.5k is not a surprising offer on an MOT-fail Duetto. I got a similar offer on my rather rusty-looking Flair (which is in effect a SWB version of the Duetto), but after spending around £2k on welding and parts it sold for £11k. You could still minimise your losses by having it repaired and MOT'd, in my opinion. If you don't, another dealer will do it, and it will be back on the market in a couple of months at £8-10k.

NO, Sir, I couched my eBay advert in the truth, and I backed up that truth by extracts from the MOT history, which I should have known about and consulted before I went about searching for a buy. To do what you suggest, would be to lower myself into the cess-pit of half truths and innuendoes that seem to be the norm today; at 79 I come from a different heritage.
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