re damp issues

Hi - I have a similar problem to Jenny C-T's with my 1995 Duetto.  The carpet below the driver's seat is soaking and I can't figure out where it's coming from.  I had a post on here in early November but had no replies so reckoned no-one had had that problem, or had, but no solution for it.  I had convinced myself I should replace the van as it does have a lot of things wrong with it (mainly rust) or things that don't work but as I was used to caravans in the days of gas mantles(!) I can tolerate the shortcomings of the current van.  However, a van that could be used at this time of year would be good and I don't think the 1995 model is up to that.  

I have been going round in a circle for weeks now - replace or keep and repair (I've already spent a vast amount on rust work).  I have been looking at Duettos and Symbols but anything beyond 2000 just doesn't come up with the goods - they aren't a patch on the LBW model, and it seems to be a choice between some good features in the Duetto or some in the Symbol but not both in the one model now. Main drawback of the symbol is the position of the gear lever and the handbrake and I've been driving for too long with both on the floor on left handside to switch easily to a gearstick on the left and brake on the right - I dare say one can get used to anything eventually but with that particular issue eventually is too long - a lot of scope for potentially serious mistakes in the meantime! 

I had persuaded myself today for the umpteenth time to replace with a newer model and have seen one I quite like, but now I've just read an article (by marquis leisure I think) to the effect that the 1994 - 2000 Duetto was an inspired design, and unmatched by anything that followed- so now I'm back to square one yet again, and in a quandary.  Any comments/suggestions will be gratefully received. 

Hi macvanessa,

I feel your pain! My 1999 Duetto has had same rust issues, and still does. I am currently replacing rear wheel arch due to serious rot.
I'm hoping to finally get on top of the situation with much metal replaced, and then the van should last a good few more years yet.
The layout is just what I need, and I do not have the funds to replace with newer.
I have not had (yet) the water leak problem you describe. On the Duetto I can think of four areas that may be causing it.
The scuttle panel beneath the windscreen? Access by removing windscreen wipers and removing grill to check for rust perforation of the panel beneath.
The joint between glass fibre roof and original van metalwork? I would expect to see some rust staining on the door pillar if that was the case.
Broken seal around the roof aerial? I had this problem, water ran inside the van roof, appeared around drivers sun visor, staining the covering, and if bad could drop onto the floor?
Lastly, is water coming up from below, through damaged front wheel arch due to corrosion or bad repair?
One more thought, it could be leaking heater matrix, but there should be a distinct smell if that was the case of the antifreeze.
I do hope you solve it, as in many cases it's better the devil you know etc.
Do try to find a reasonable welder who doesn't charge excessively if you cannot do repairs yourself. I paid a fortune for replacement front wings/arches early this year. I was told the usual "won't know how much will need doing until we get into it", but they charged by the hour, and were not quick workers!! I'm attempting further work myself to cut costs where I can.
A Duetto in good order is still a valuable asset, and such a good and popular layout.
Jollywalker

macvanessa wrote:
. Main drawback of the symbol is the position of the gear lever and the handbrake and I've been driving for too long with both on the floor on left handside to switch easily to a gearstick on the left and brake on the right - I dare say one can get used to anything eventually but with that particular issue eventually is too long - a lot of scope for potentially serious mistakes in the meantime! 

I dare say I've been driving for even more years than you, and have to say the above will not be a problem at all. I jump from my right hand handbrake van to the left hand handbrake on the car with never a thought. It's no different from driving a left hand drive car or driving abroad on the right, or even driving an automatic, all of which are adapted to easier than you might think.
Al.

I agree entirely with Al, and since he's a mere youngster I've probably been driving even longer than him. 

In no time you drop into "van mode" as you climb into the cab, and reaching for the handbrake on the wrong side becomes automatic.

Hi  Jollywalker interesting tips on damp at front of Duetto. As previously posted my problem is wet carpet at rear of van ,no obvious entry points but wander whether it could be coming through fridge vents.Carpet in cupboard under fridge wet but not the wood. I am really baffled any help really appreciated. Thanks

Thanks all for comments.  Jollywalker - I don't think it can be windscreen or heater, or coming up from below, but aerial or roof/metalwork junction are possibilities.  It is wettest on floor at back of seat and seeps forward from there.  The aerial is no longer there but that has been sealed up and there is no sign of damp/rust anywhere else.  Running down from roof via door pillar seems most likely.  Jenny - it wouldn't be condensation at the fridge in your van either leaking out from inside or on the outside to begin with?

Re the handbrake/gear lever issue - that is encouraging Dave and Al, however, yesterday I looked at a Duetto and a Symbol, both 2004 and the main overall drawback with both compared to a 1995 Duetto is the cupboard space and general van space.  Number and type of cupboards, their locations and even their internal fittings are not as good and I don't know if I could get used to that after the current van.  There are just so many things wrong with my van - an embarrassingly long list! - that I probably shouldn't put up with them but just bite the bullet and replace the van.  Latest idea is to go for the 2004 Duetto then if I couldn't get used to it, revert to an older Duetto though on the other hand it's very true what Jollywalker says: "better the devil you know"!

Hi, easiest method would be to remove the carpet to dry , especially any sound deadening felt underneath as this soaks up vast amounts of moisture. While carpet is out  dry the area and dust around door seals and underneath dash around pedal area with talcum powder. Then while sitting in the van with a good torch get someone to play water from a hose or watering can around the windscreen , wiper landing panel,  door seals etc . A leak will be seen as a track appearing in the talcum. 
        This method has been used to detect some pretty obscure leaks . Problem being depending on how level your van is parked water will pool at the low point so you saying water pooling at seat does not indicate the leak source as necessarily being at the seat area.Common areas to check are seals around door, grommets in engine bay such as around steering column or where wiring goes through bulkhead , rust holes anywhere!, and on a van of that age seam sealer that has gone hard and cracked causing leaks.If the water is dirty then road spray through a hole somewhere is likely , if clean then more likely to be from door, bulkhead or windscreen / roof bonding area. Does the van have the original windscreen as have personally seen lower screen area rusted away by windscreen fitter damaging paintwork cutting out old damaged screen 2 years before.  At least tracing the leak will be cheap to do and hopefully an easy repair . At this time of year best if  you can stop water ingress which will kill the van in no time if left unchecked with rust and damp/ mould taking hold in the furnishings.
        I agree with others, only you can decide if better to spend some ££ repairing your van or take a gamble buying someone else's pile of dog poo tarted up for a quick sale - better the devil you know perhaps? I personally can end up driving vehicles with  several layouts of controls per day and agree with others , you quickly adapt and who knows ,  you may find that moving the gear lever from floor to dash is a brilliant idea! Best if luck and if I can be of any further assistance just ask . Ps dont worry the weather will turn back to the usually tropical norm for Dunbartonshire around April/May.........

Thanks Kaspian.   Lifting the carpet is beyond me, as it would mean removing the seat, and it's well attached to the floor!  Those suggestions re source are interesting though, I may take it in to the repair place to let them have a look at it. As far as I know windscreen is original one, but door seal might be the source.

I finally took the van in for a repair this week.  They say the seals on the skylights had gone and they have replaced the old silicon ones with poly-something  ones.  Only time will tell if that was in fact the source of the water ingress.  Once the van has dried out - including all the general dampness now in it from the condensation resulting from the leak - it will become clearer.  I have asked them to assess the van generally for rust before I get it back tomorrow, as I am still in two minds about replacing it - but now that I've had a more detailed look at newer vans (post-2000) the old van is still streets ahead when it comes to cupboard space, layout, and space generally.

Hi Macvanessa, fingers crossed that they have stopped the water ingress . Do you keep the van at home on a driveway? If so I would open the roof vents and windows especially on rare  dry windy days to ventilate and get rid of remaining damp . Good ventilation is the key here . I have used a wet and dry vacuum in the past which   removed  gallons if water  initially . A fan heater directed at the worst areas can work wonders but be careful to supervise for safety. The problem with  many vehicle carpets is the construction which does not let water pass through. This leads to water that finds its way under the carpet being effectively trapped , especially in the heavy felt underlays used for sound deadening in older vans. If you are able,  try lifting a corner of the footwell carpet and use a screwdriver/ bit of wood etc to lift the carpet clear from the floor and force air underneath to assist drying.
          With the water ingress hopefully stopped,  now is the time to prioritise the other repairs you mentioned but try and get some use out of the van as this helps no end with moral ! I speak from experience having once completed a 3 year  ground up restoration of a sports car only  to sell it on completion as I was sick of the sight of it.  Taking it for a new mot  was the only use I got from it! All the best 

Thanks Kaspian.  When I got it  back today it was a lot drier inside as it had been in the workshop for three days/nights with vents open.  It's kept at a local storage place as I can't accommodate it in driveway and getting it in is a nightmare as I'm on a main road.  However, I will try to bring it over for a day or two sometime and put a dehumidifier in it (cabled from house).  Problem is it might not be till after the New Year due to restricted opening hours of the yard for the next week or so.  Repair man says it should be good for another year anyway, so I will probably stick with it as cost of a few more minor repairs will be less painful than forking out for another van.  I will let you know how it goes.

I have only now been able to get over to check the van since the "repair" was done, only to find it is worse than ever!  So - not the roof-lights then.  I have decided yet again that I should replace the van as it may be OK for DIY experts to have a van of this age with its problems but for me it is not really practical.  I do not want to part company with it all the same because I like it.  However, I have arranged for a test drive of a 2004 Duetto that's not too far away and if it drives much better than the old one I - may be tempted.  Has anyone switched from the 1994 - 2000 range to the newer ones with less cupboard space and how did you get on with it?

macvanessa,

Don`t be afraid of change, you will get use to a different van in a short while, just take it slowly .

Having a dry van should be the icing on the cake,

I have just changed from an 18` van to a 23` and it is still my car. it is different, gears and driving position , seat, etc, other one was like a comfy pair of slippers in the cab, so a learning curve.

Just think what it was like when you first had your present van.?

Take heart and think,  you will not have the bother you have at present.

Good luck,
Best wishes,
Margaret

Thanks Margaret - you are right, and there is a lot of scope for less bother!

Hi Macvanessa, sorry to hear you are no further forward with solving the leak in the van. You are probably right in your assessment as if relying on so called tradesmen it could end up costing a lot of money to get the van up to scratch. Being a competent Diy'er helps greatly in keeping costs down.
    Good luck with the test drive but if possible take someone with a bit of experience because as stated before there is a lot of tarted up dog poo out there both on private and trade sale. Last thing you want is to replace one problem van only to acquire someone else's discarded nightmare! Dont forget , on a 2004 van , check very carefully for rust and poor repairs to bodywork and underside.  Use the Dvla website to check past MOT history using the vehicles reg. Number. This may show up any advisories or failures in the past. Costs nothing and can give good insight into how the van has been kept. Good luck and let us know how you get on with the test drive.

Thanks Kaspian.  I have been to see this one twice and it looks ok - but don't they all?  Only 40,000 miles, 2004; I can't remember if the reg plate was visible on the van itself but on the websites it has the company name over it so the number can't be seen.  Hope that is not a bad sign.  I have just had another look at the description and it says it has Diesel Eberspracher heating - I have never heard of that - is it  OK?

Obscuring the number plate is not uncommon - one reason people do it is to reduce the risk of people cloning the van's plates from the advert and putting it on a similar vehicle.

Eberspacher is one of two leading makers of diesel powered blown air heaters (Webasto being the other). They are top-quality heaters, and it's a £1000+ option on vans where they don't fit them as standard. The main downside to them is that they can be very noisy during the first few minutes after starting, but they normally then drop down to a lower power setting which makes them pretty quiet.

I've had either Eber or Webasto heaters on the last 3 vans, and have found them to be very effective, and economical to run too.

Cloned number plates?   Who would have thought.  The heater might account for the price as I thought it was overpriced compared to other vans. On the company's own website it is now marked "sale" but it's the same price it has always been.  I am hoping to get them to come down a bit if i go for this one.

macvanessa wrote:Cloned number plates?   Who would have thought.

Cloned is perhaps too elaborate a word - copied would be a better one.

It generally means that they can drive the vehicle without insurance (and possibly without MOT and road tax) and not get picked up as needing to be investigated by the ANPR cameras. And of course, speeding and parking tickets and unpaid tolls all find their way back to the owner of the vehicle that they copied the number plate from!

Hi Macvanessa, a call to the dealer should be able to get you the reg number if they are remotely interested in selling and it is a simple job to go on to the DVLA and check MOT history held for the vehicle.  Can be an eye opener as recently when looking for a small sports car it revealed loads that  had just scraped an mot last time around  with advisories for corrosion almost everywhere underneath!
      As Mojo says Eberspacher heaters get a good name and are efficient and economical if camping off grid , running on diesel from the fuel tank. I had a works Transit fitted with Eberspacher around 2004 and it was very efficient but was a little noisy on start up sounding like a small jet engine for a few moments. Well liked though as it could be set to come on 10 mins before leaving for work and van was ready to drive in the dead if winter ,toasty and defrosted !
      Buying a van at this time of year should have dealers biting your arm off to make a sale so haggle hard but politely . Unfortunately I have encountered many dealers north of the border that  have a kind of bravado about them and offer little discount . Be prepared to walk away, there will always be another van. I know of several vans that we were interested in over 3 years ago that are still sitting rotting away on dealers forecourts still at the same price from over 3 years ago! Down south there is a much larger market and more competition so dealers may  be more willing to deal but if anything goes wrong you can be faced with the hassle of returning the van for remedial work . If you are prepared to reveal the dealer even by pm they may be known to someone having used them before. All the best...

Thanks Kaspian.  I have now checked the MOT history.  There were two minor fails - light not working and front brake discs pitted - otherwise OK, except for two advisories I wonder about:
Under-trays fitted obscuring some underside components
Engine covers fitted obscuring some components in the engine
are these likely to be obscuring problems too? or are they some sort of protective things that are a bonus?

This seems to be the latest get out clause for the mot tester as most vehicles have undertrays fitted , some several and it covers their backside by commenting as you note that the view was obscured in case there is serious corrosion  or some other nasty hidden behind the cover. My question to the tester was would you like me to remove the trays so you can inspect ? Funnily enough he declined.
       Brake disc corrosion probably affects most motorhomes which can spend long periods not moving. Never suffered brake disc corrosion in my works van as it is used daily!

Hi

macvanessa wrote:
Under-trays fitted obscuring some underside components
Engine covers fitted obscuring some components in the engine
are these likely to be obscuring problems too? or are they some sort of protective things that are a bonus?

Yes they can cover up problems or even cause them.

I removed my engine tray to find an oil leak (turned out to be nothing more than the filter) but found a rust hole in the front cross member. Water seems to sit in the gap where the tray joins the cross member. A simple and cheap welding repair but I have left the cover off ever since

Secondly there was some surface rust on the chassis members that I was able to  rub down and treat before it became a problem.

Brod

Thanks Kaspian and Brodco

The under tray and cover are only mentioned in the 2014 MOT, not before and not since, so hopefully that means they have been removed either permanently or for the purpose of the MOT inspections.  I suppose it would be an idea to have it checked by the AA or similar if I decide  I want to go for this one.