Heavy Clutch Pedal

Hi folks, I love this van but one thing that niggles me is the clutch pedal.
For three year the pedal has been so heavy at point that the pedal broke on a trip to Selsey Bill.
The Achilles heal seems to be the length of the clutch cable. Last year when the pedal broke I fortunately had a spare on board and it was fitted a a garage in Bognor, I collected it and was told to have a new clutch fitted which I did without a thought of cost and had an LUK one fitted. when I picked the vehicle up the clutch pedal was as smooth as silk and was lovely to drive at first but after a while it started to stiffen up again. Back to the garage and another cable was fitted, all Peugeot ones and they ain't cheap. Again the pedal is started to stiffen up, I have checked the route of the cable and also the scuttle panel for water.
A have been onto the dealer and they cant help. Been down the road of cables and clutches and I am getting to the stage of selling the van, such a shame as it is just what we need. 
Anyone and there must be a few out there with the same problem. Thanks for listening guys I am getting desperate now that spring is around the corner.

Mike 

I had the heavy clutch and broken pedal syndrome but it was cured by fitting an OEM cable - in my case it was a Citroen one. One thing I noticed when fitting the cable was that it seemed to be coated in what appeared to be graphite which the aftermarket cables weren't.
You've already gone down this route so I'm sorry I can't be of any help.

Frank

Would it be possible to adapt the hydraulic system used on the next generation of Boxer vans? There must be loads in scrapyards.
Al.

As has been said before on this forum regarding the heavy clutch syndrome on some of these vehicles. I had a similar problem with my FIAT Ducato Harmony and it turned out to be the clutch cross shaft seizing in the bell housing.....Now perfect.....

So what did you do - lubricate the nylon<?> bushes?

Frank

Hi Franks, thanks for your help. Gear box was removed in the autumn and the bushes were lubricated and sealed from above with silicone to stop the ingress of water. A new clutch LUK was also fitted plus a new OM cable.
On driving the van home the clutch felt really good but on the next trip it started to get stiff again. I have since at great expense had another clutch cable fitted, it is now going stiff again. 
I am lost as what to do now apart from selling the van.

Thanks for the other reply's the change to hydraulic is out of the question as the van style was changed.

Really sad as over £1,000 has been spend so far.

A really sad Mike 

Flying High wrote: and the bushes were lubricated and sealed from above with silicone to stop the ingress of water.

If the bushes are nylon [and I don't know if they are] then water in them would be beneficial as water is a lubricant for nylon.

Frank

Hi Frank, it was done by a gearbox specialist i know so I dont think that is the problem. I am so surprised that nobody with a 2000 diesel van had the problem. A friend has a 2001 van the same but petrol and has no problems.
We shall see I might bite the bullet and puts some graphite grease down the cable Such a shame I still have a problem.

Regards, Mike 

Flying High wrote:
We shall see I might bite the bullet and puts some graphite grease down the cable Such a shame I still have a problem.

Hi Mike, personally, I would not use any kind of grease on a lined cable. I've had problems with lined motorcycle cables and grease. What happens in my experience is that the lining comes loose and bunches up inside the steel outer, jamming the inner.

I would try using powdered graphite. If you can't get it locally, there are plenty sellers on eBay:
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HTH
Frank

Flying High wrote:Hi folks, I love this van but one thing that niggles me is the clutch pedal.
For three year the pedal has been so heavy at point that the pedal broke on a trip to Selsey Bill.
The Achilles heal seems to be the length of the clutch cable. Last year when the pedal broke I fortunately had a spare on board and it was fitted a a garage in Bognor, I collected it and was told to have a new clutch fitted which I did without a thought of cost and had an LUK one fitted. when I picked the vehicle up the clutch pedal was as smooth as silk and was lovely to drive at first but after a while it started to stiffen up again. Back to the garage and another cable was fitted, all Peugeot ones and they ain't cheap. Again the pedal is started to stiffen up, I have checked the route of the cable and also the scuttle panel for water.
A have been onto the dealer and they cant help. Been down the road of cables and clutches and I am getting to the stage of selling the van, such a shame as it is just what we need. 
Anyone and there must be a few out there with the same problem. Thanks for listening guys I am getting desperate now that spring is around the corner.

Mike 

Thinking sideways, Fit an additional earth straps from the engine to the chassis to the battery. This will back up your original earth straps.
Just in case you are getting a partial earth through your clutch cable which will in turn run warm to hot giving you the symptoms of your cable stiffening up . Gren.

My cable outer has rubber insulators betwixt bellhousing/cable and bulkhead/cable. The inner has a rubber 'bung' at the clutch arm end and a plastic pedal at the other end.
Can't see how it could provide a path to earth?

Mind you, Mike's van is later than mine and will have a different setup, but I still think this is clutching [sorry!] at straws.

Frank

Thinking out loud - is the cable running easily when disconnected at both ends? could you then connect it to the pedal and see if still runs freely, if not then pedal at fault. If that's also OK then it has to be clutch/clutch lever. Sorry if you've already tried this.

Paulmold wrote:Thinking out loud - is the cable running easily when disconnected at both ends? could you then connect it to the pedal and see if still runs freely, if not then pedal at fault. If that's also OK then it has to be clutch/clutch lever. Sorry if you've already tried this.

Thanks Paulmold, new Pedal, new OM cable and New clutch also had the clutch arm checked. Thanks for the feedback anyway.

boxerman wrote:My cable outer has rubber insulators betwixt bellhousing/cable and bulkhead/cable. The inner has a rubber 'bung' at the clutch arm end and a plastic pedal at the other end.
Can't see how it could provide a path to earth?

Mind you, Mike's van is later than mine and will have a different setup, but I still think this is clutching [sorry!] at straws.

Frank

Agrees Frank, but worth a try with a separate earth strap, I will give that a try when the rain stops.

Regards, Mike  

Thanks for all the help, the main problem seems to be the length of the cable 2 mtrs or 6 ft in old money. Also the van is right hand drive which makes the cable so much longer, through the bulkhead, turn left and along the bulkhead down behind the gearbox then round the gearbox and up onto the clutch arm.
Thanks Frank for the graphite powder idea, will also give that a try.

Best regards, Mike 

It's an odd sounding fault!  I'd go back to basics with it and start at the pedal end. Disconnect the cable and test the pedal itself, watch it operation carefully,  is it able to completely travel up and down and not catching or binding on its pivot shaft?  Then remove the cable itself. It should move very smoothly and you shouldn't have to add any other lube to it. Are the end seals complete, not binding on the inner cable? Is it routed anywhere near to a heat source, like your exhaust? Does it fit correctly through the bulkhead? From memory, there's usually a tube type thing that the cable assy passes through, is that nice and clear, not distorted in any way? 

Reassemble the cable to the pedal, but not the clutch fork, and try the operation. Everything should be the same as the rest during the original tests, I. E no binding whatsoever. If this all checks through  then you must have a gearbox problem. My money would be on the clutch release arm binding on the first motion shaft, or, and this could be a long shot, a partially seizing spigot bearing in the flywheel. Unlikely, but could cause a degree of drag during clutch operation.  Another possibility is a bent 1st motion shaft, this is the part that the clutch operation works with the release arm and bearing. The bearing carrier should always slide smoothly along the shaft when the clutch pedal is depressed and released. If the shaft is distorted in anyway, then that will give the symptoms you describe. They can get damaged very easily during clutch replacement if the gearbox is allowed to hang on the shaft via the clutch assy during refitting.  And, or, the shaft ,if the gearbox hung on the clutch assy during refitting, could have bent the clutch plate where the shaft passes through, that too would make the clutch heavy to operate. Or, you have damaged splines on the shaft so the release bearing binds on it. It has to be one of these!

Sorry for being so long winded but if it's none of the above, then I too am totally stumped.  Good luck with it anyway. 

Thanks for the reply Dougdf,
We, have done most of what you suggested including checking out the gearbox which has been done by a specialist and the only thing left is the cable check and possibly an earth strap. Barring that I am stumped and will have to live with it.
The length on the cable is the problem I am sure, changing to hydraulic is an option but I will need a gearbox, pedal box, slave and master cylinder out of a similar van. To be honest I cannot afford to go that route so selling is the only option.
Very sad state of affairs.
Thanks anyway for your suggestions.

Best regards, Mike  

Mike, you have said on more than one occasion that you feel the length of the cable is the issue. As everyone else with this vehicle has the same length of cable and are not having problems [or are keeping quiet about it] I cannot see that your problem lies with the cable length. Cable routing could be an issue though. My cable is not fixed to the bulkhead, apart from where it goes through to the pedal box. Its supported by brackets attached to the scuttle panel, well away from the bulkhead then drops down behind the air intake ducting to loop around to the bellhousing.

Mine is older than yours and is petrol though.

Frank

OK,  Mike. Sorry that you are facing the possibility of selling your van though.

I wouldn't have thought the length of the cable would give such symptoms as it was the incorrect the length then you either experience difficulty selecting gears as the clutch isn't fully engaged or not getting gears at all. Have you ever had the clutch replaced? If so  is it the correct one??

And I think I'm correct in saying that clutch cables were more popular than hydraulic as it made the clutch lighter to operate.

But the more I think on this, my money is on the gearbox being the culprit, I. E release bearing housing catching on the 1st motion shaft. 1 piece of grit jammed betwween the splined shaft and housing could well make operation heavy as it cannot slide freely. Perhaps a second opinion at another garage for their thoughts before you sell up!  


Why not try Yalding service station, in Yalding? Not too far from you and the old boy there (don't tell him I said that) seems very clued up and they specialise in older, classic type vehicles. I had my VW T3 camper fixed there plus an mot and the also mot''d my Symphony last year too. Might be worth a phone call if nothing else! 

Best wishes, Doug.

boxerman wrote:Mike, you have said on more than one occasion that you feel the length of the cable is the issue. As everyone else with this vehicle has the same length of cable and are not having problems [or are keeping quiet about it] I cannot see that your problem lies with the cable length. Cable routing could be an issue though. My cable is not fixed to the bulkhead, apart from where it goes through to the pedal box. Its supported by brackets attached to the scuttle panel, well away from the bulkhead then drops down behind the air intake ducting to loop around to the bellhousing.

Mine is older than yours and is petrol though.

Frank

Hi Frank, a friend if mine has a 2001 petrol and has no problems and is the same model as mine. I might reroute the cable tomorrow and take it away from the bulkhead. Interesting to know about the brackets, will have a look tomorrow and report. Thanks for your help.

Regards Mike 

Thanks Dougrf, will call them tomorrow.

Does this help?



Frank

Dougrdf wrote:
And I think I'm correct in saying that clutch cables were more popular than hydraulic as it made the clutch lighter to operate.

Best wishes, Doug.

Not in my experience Doug. With a hydraulic system there are no friction losses at all between action and reaction. I've owned many bikes, cars, and a few vans that had cable operated clutches, and not one of them was as light and smooth to use as the hydraulic clutch operated vehicles I own at present. In fact my Nuevo has an even lighter clutch action than my car, both hydraulic.
Al.

OK,  yep, that makes sense   thanks for clarifying it.

Thanks for the image Frank my cable is on the other side of the brake master cylinder and is as you say in clips away from the bulkhead. I have been under the vehicle this morning and it looks like the clutch actuating lever through the bell housing is not flush and is pulling away from the casing as there is a gap.
Looks like the box has got to come out again.