Re: Anyone with a Sprinter feeling helpful?

by Jaytee Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:28 pm

Hi Ploghlin, I did think of direct but the woman at CS UK said they would bounce straight back to her.
Do you get notifications of posts from the sprinter forum?

Thanks PT, unfortunately I have the bit between my teeth and I need the answer lol. Am probably going to be black marked at all Mercedes outlets. Once I know, whichever way I will relax and stop annoying everyone.
As a good friend of mine always says 'why just be akward when with a bit of effort you can be down right impossible'. Hopefully I am not in the impossible bracket just yet hugegrins

by PLOUGHLIN Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:46 pm

Liam, In the SA codes doc linked by Peter Brown, C33 is described as 2 leaf springs. The build doc from the VIN search just says rear springs harder on mine as well. It could be that with XL8 specified C33 is automatically changed to C38, but who knows? Mercedes?

Jaytee, no I didn't sign for auto email,just look in most days. Interesting what those guys do with their Sprinters, but not as extreme as the yanks do to their Smarts.

I think I will send a email to MB Germany, and question the C33/C38 anomalies, see where I get shunted to.

by Peter Brown Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:59 pm

On a lighter note, if all goes to plan Jaytee, Liam and myself can spend a few days in France next June comparing spring travel.

Peter

by Pete Taylor Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:23 pm

See... you've got me started again! fedup

My C33 says "rear springs harder", they are 1+1 i.e. single leaf plus helper leaf and in X13 it says "Weight variant 3200kg".

It is all about width and thickness variables, officer.

Elvis will now leave the building again... and look at his air suspension.... quick_run

by PLOUGHLIN Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:43 pm

Pete, X13? That is alighting package in the US list.

My C33 appears to be single leaf each side. scratch head

Anyone with a Sprinter feeling helpful? - Page 3 P1010210

ps You can see my Air suspension too. dont_mentionIt

by Liam Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:50 pm

Pete, I think your air suspension "add on" is the answer to the maidens prayer - and would provide that extra peace of mind we are all looking for. I shall have to give it some thought as well as making a firm financial case to my finance manager - I had enough trouble persuading her that we change the Audio10 unit!!

Its interesting that your C33 states "Springs" whereas mine states "Spring" - i.e. you have 2 springs and I have one - the Germans are always very precise. "I shall say this only once!!"

Peter, I think we will also need a few bottles of the local vintage to help in our spring travel comparison exercise.

Still confused.

Liam

by Jaytee Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:58 pm

Peter Brown wrote:On a lighter note, if all goes to plan Jaytee, Liam and myself can spend a few days in France next June comparing spring travel.

Peter

That sounds like my sort of holiday hugegrins

by Jaytee Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:02 pm

Liam wrote:Pete, I think your air suspension "add on" is the answer to the maidens prayer - and would provide that extra peace of mind we are all looking for. I shall have to give it some thought as well as making a firm financial case to my finance manager - I had enough trouble persuading her that we change the Audio10 unit!!

Liam

Would be nice IF they are the wrong springs and we could get a contribution. I have that strange feeling that the 'flogging a dead horse saying' is starting to become a reality though. Whistle1

by Pete Taylor Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:16 pm

Confusing is not the word! I'm just checking the yard-arm and the position of the sun.

My list of codes is a print-out given to me at Mercedes Van Centre, East Manchester. A more helpful set of folks you could not meet. The print-out is called EVA- Vehicle Information and is on the Daimler system, which is the system which holds all the details from build, servicing, recalls... in fact, everything. The Service/Parts Manager should run you one off if you ask. That Russian(?) data sheet which has been linked here several times is a slightly different layout (a bit less easy to read) but has the same info, so is from the same source.
US Sprinters are (I think) built by Dodge, some are also badged as Dodge, according to a mate in Canada. I guess that there may be certain differences compared to Europe, some have Dodge engines, some have dodgy engines.

There are far too many Petes and Peters around here and at least two of us seem to have rubber suspenders but that's another story.

by Pete Taylor Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:25 pm

Jaytee wrote:
Liam wrote:Pete, I think your air suspension "add on" is the answer to the maidens prayer - and would provide that extra peace of mind we are all looking for. I shall have to give it some thought as well as making a firm financial case to my finance manager - I had enough trouble persuading her that we change the Audio10 unit!!

Liam

Would be nice IF they are the wrong springs and we could get a contribution. I have that strange feeling that the 'flogging a dead horse saying' is starting to become a reality though.

Well, the suspension I got, was not what I was expecting- at least in terms of payload; after much discussion I managed to come to a deal whereby the semi-air was fitted, cost split 3 ways, A-S, the Dealer and me. I have still not had a bill and am not going to rock that boat any further.

My rear end is currently sitting about 30mm higher and roundabouts feel better than before. There was nothing wrong before but it is better now, if you know what I mean! I'm gradually filling the van with all the junk we usually have- all the short breaks so far have been bare-essentials and a dry van, perhaps my 35mpg will now drop to real-world levels, watch this space. Going to Wales (Bedgellert/Harlech) on Monday, will still not bother with bikes, water or loo but after that I'll load the full monty and go to a weigh-bridge to see wots wot.

by PLOUGHLIN Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:38 pm

Pete, All US Sprinter/Freightliner or what they may be called are built in Germany by MB, then part broken down, shipped to US and reassembled in Charleston (I think). MB are intending a factory in US to build them direct, by 2016.

Jaytee, I see over the pond you have a "Aurosleeper Winchcombe" allthumbz

by Pete Taylor Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:58 pm

PLOUGHLIN wrote:Pete, All US Sprinter/Freightliner or what they may be called are built in Germany by MB, then part broken down, shipped to US and reassembled in Charleston (I think). MB are intending a factory in US to build them direct, by 2016.

Here's a bit of interesting US history- note the date of introduction of add-blue:

History

2006 - Sprinter NCV3 is introduced.
2007 - NCV3 arrives in North America as a Dodge or Freightliner.
2008 - New option of power sliding side door is introduced (Not in USA).

2009 - Petrol engine is discontinued (USA).
2010 - The Dodge badge is dropped. Sprinters will be badged Mercedes-Benz and Freightliner (USA).

2010 is also the year that the US got the new Bluetec emissions system, requiring less energy so more power and mileage, but also requiring filling of a tank onboard with AdBlue DEF, a urea compound that helps catalyze the NOx in the exhaust.

2010-2014 Euro5 emissions are met in Europe through use of a DPF filter
2014> Euro6 diesel engines are reported to require AdBlue as well as the DPF filter.

Apologies for thread drift, chaps.

by Jaytee Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:34 pm

PLOUGHLIN wrote:

Jaytee, I see over the pond you have a "Aurosleeper Winchcombe"

I just slipped a bit of Spanish accent in to it hugegrins

Have corrected it now up!

by redturner37 Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:37 pm

Pete Taylor wrote:
redturner37 wrote:.........................Austin 7 s had quarter eliptic springs at the rear, goodness what kind of sports cars were you driving, lol.
Austin Healey Sprite, MG Midget Mk1...

Nice...................

by Jaytee Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:18 am

Well, I've not given up but 'dead ends' keep appearing. Ploughlin, did you have any luck with a direct contact to MB?

by PLOUGHLIN Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:38 pm

I did send an internet enquiry but have not had any response from any country yet. scratch head

by Jaytee Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:17 am

Very very unlike me but I am approaching the 'give up JT' moment. It seems like a total closed shop and every one I contact (other than forums) says 'can't help, you are in the UK contact MB UK'.

Very disappointing as I genuinely think from research that we should have the C38 (3880 kg) springs fitted.

Sadly my 'programming' won't let me give up but am running out of options shrugg

by Pete Taylor Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:09 pm

I can't help thinking that (possibly to keep costs down) A-S have under-specced the rear springing on their M-B base units.

You have had a most unusual double breakage, I have received a vehicle which is not to UK mechanical specification for the payload and it seems that paper-exercising a re-plate is the norm (hardly engineering best-practice).

Why are we the only two folks to put their hands up? I suspect that in your case you have been unlucky to have this catastrophic failure early in the life of the vehicle, others may suffer similar problems later and that in my case other owners (who are not so technically minded as wot I am) maybe will have their headlights increasingly pointing towards the heavens as the years roll on.

by Jaytee Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:14 pm

I have now reached a point where I need to make a decision as they have almost managed to beat me down, BUT I have my teeth into this and need to sort it. So which choice;

Walk away and just use the vehicle and hope the springs don't break again. Probably the most sensible.
Fit air bag assisters at my expense (why should I have to)
Or involve VCA or whoever it is that approves the plated figures. Result may apply to many of us.

Follows in as an abbreviated a way as possible are my conclusions to date: (in true inspector Clouseau fashion )

As far as I can ascertain:
C33 springs are rated to 2250 kg
C38 springs are rated to 2430 kg
Back axle 'IS' plated to 2430 kg.

Therefore I believe the reason AS specify C33 springs is that: they tell me they have calculated that 'with careful loading' and with front and rear axle loads added to not exceed 3880kg, I will not exceed 2135 kg on the back axle; in fact they don't consider I will ever reach 3880kg due to the large payload!!!!!!! (I have all this in writing from them).

Now, what if I don't or don't know how to load carefully as in 'keep weight forward'?
What if, as I do due to not always stopping on actual sites, carry full water and sometimes have grey as well?
What if I have two bikes to max bike rack loading?
What if I had a trailer? GTW is 5880 kg.
What if I 'do' load to gross weight? Which I do funnily enough. My two dogs weigh 70 kg for a start!

By using simple weight and balance calculations any weights close to the rear axle will have a lesser effect on front axle load and a greater effect on the rear. I.e. roughly speaking 90 kg of fresh water will put 20kg on front axle and 70kg on rear. (I could calculate this accurately). On the other hand weights 'behind' the rear axle will 'lighten' the load on the front and increase the load on the back by the actual weight times the moment, the lever arm, I.e. 100 kg one meter aft will add, say, 120 kg to the back axle and reduce the load on the front by 20 kg. (Again, I could calculate that accurately).
If I put a trailer on then that lever arm would be increased right back to the tow ball and trailer nose weight would have an even greater effect on the back axle loading.
The Winchcombe does not have a large over hang but this lever arm effect would be considerably greater on a Burford for example with more length behind the axle.

Based on these facts how can AS possibly 'calculate' the max we will put on our back axles being only 2135kg? I 'will' undoubtedly while using my MH as it is intended with water tanks being used and then adding a bike rack, (by just rough calculations) get up to at least 2320 Kg on the back axle and with poor loading up to 2400kg. And that is without towing which would make matters worse.

So, from the above and with an axle legally plated to 2430kg but only capable of taking 2250kg how did it get EU type approval via VCA or Mercedes approval or whatever the approval is? In fact WHY did it get plated to 2430 if it can't take it?

Anyway, that's me beaten down for now so back to my choice of three. Which one scratch head

by Peter Brown Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:31 pm

I have my vehicle specific EC Certificate of Conformity.

"The Technically permissible mass on each axle: 1: 1800kg 2: 2430kg"

Therefore the vehicle should be able to be operated at those weights safely and without breaking. Yours broke but were replaced like for like by Mercedes's at the expense of Mercedes not AS. My conclusion would be that Mercedes deem the spring fitted fit for purpose.

Peter

by PLOUGHLIN Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:59 pm

As PB, for my Gloucester, the handbook states (3880kg MTPLM)

Front MIRO 1594kg, MTPLM 1800kg
Rear MIRO 1712kg, MTPLM 2430kg

I would expect to be able to safely use the vehicle up to those weights. Being end bed, I am more likely to load up between axles. I only use the under bed storage for chairs table cushions etc.

I find it strange that MB will uprate to 3880kg without supplying the high load rear springs.THe rear axle should be given as MTPLM 2230kg, which still would allow MTPLM total 3880kg, ie with front axle at higher load.

I think you should load up to MIRO, and visit a weighbridge to get front/rear MIRO loads to check the AS figures, they may be total rubbish. WIth this info,you will have a better idea of a way forward.

by Jaytee Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:42 pm

Hi Peter, Ploughlin. I didnt check at MIRO but I put the truck accross the weighbridge to get actual rear axle weight loaded almost ready for hols and then calculated the fresh water etc from its position in the chassis and the 2320Kg was my weight. Which is already almost 200Kg above the AS 2135Kg that they say I will never exceed. And then if I stick bikes on the rack I will be at or over 2400kg. And this is on springs rated for 2250Kg and I think a good reason why the springs broke?
A chat with VCA I think.
I know I am probably hanging on to this for far too long BUT two broken springs concentrates the mind which struggles with 'unknowns'.

by PLOUGHLIN Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:54 pm

I see now. What does the Handbook give as the MIRO of the individual axles? What did the front axle weigh when you check it?

https://www.gov.uk/report-vehicle-safety-defect

by inspiredron Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:33 pm

If you are getting nowher with A/S then I think that you should file a reporf with VOSA. However, my own experience of making a report to VOSA was not good. The vehicle manufacturer (Toyta) successfully defended themselves. It concerned the fact that if doors are locked by driver from inside it is VERY difficult and not obvious for passengers to unlock their doors and opening the drivrrs door does not create a global unlock.
But it costs you nothing to report. You need to make a logical case.

by gemdeco Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:59 pm

Hi
It is with some concern that I read of your problems having just purchased a Surrey of similar weight with the intention of towing with it .How do I find what springs I have fitted
regards Alan