Hab electrics defaulting to vehicle battery

We have had a few electrical issues with our new Auto Sleeper Burford including central locking, the latter now thankfully fixed. The leisure battery was discharging over a few days and the only way to solve that (so far) has been by use of the isolating switch on the consumer unit.

On several occasions when away it was noticed that the "active" battery was the vehicle battery despite the fact that the change over switch hadn't been toggled.  Recently the habitation electrics were isolated while the vehicle was stood over Christmas and when I powered up again the other day I had an immediate warning that the vehicle battery was low and again I found that this was showing as the "active" battery on the display.

Has anyone else out there had similar problems or can offer advice. All contributions will be welcome.

Many thanks in advance.

It will make things easier if you say which make/model of power control system you have, as this behaviour varies significantly depending on that.

Some (e.g. the midrange Sargent models) will continue to charge the leisure battery even with the main unit powered down, while others will not. Some will auto switchover to the other battery if one gets too low - though the ones I'm familiar with ~should~ only switch from vehicle to leisure, and not the other way.

Whatever the detail, if you have an unexplained battery drain, the only viable long-term option is to get an ammeter put on it and have the drain located. If you don't it will eventually trash your batteries.

In addition to Mojo's questions; have you a solar panel fitted and was the vehicle inside or out?

Things shouldn't be happening as you describe and as you say it is a new van I should get it straight back to your dealer for investigation before any damage is done to the batteries.

Peter

Hi Dave
Welcome to the forum from a cool frosty morning in Bridlington 
Boaby

Morning all and thanks for your input so far.

To answer your questions the PCU is a Sargent EC500 with the EC480 display.  There is has the Premium Pack upgrade so ahs the "standard" factory fitted 30w solar panel and the van is parked outside on our drive.

It's been back to the dealer for them to look at this issue, the response was NFF (no fault found). 

For info other issues were:
Central locking (sorted)
Carpet studs missing behind cab seats (sorted)
Problems with switching of the lounge spotlights (sorted)
Intermittent failure of the water pump (NFF)
Habitation air con unit air flow (sorted)
Intermittent "glow" of neon indicator light on microwave switch when not switched on (NFF)
Bottom seal in bathroom coming away (sorted)
 
In addition it's obvious that fuse 11 in the PSU had been replaced (it's an old fuse) prior to us picking up the vehicle which was bought "off the forecourt", but no-one at the dealer knows why!

Does any of this help?

Again many thanks for your interest.

Dave Brown

There is obviously a problem with your electrical installation and its complex so difficult to diagnose without 'hand on'.

Neon indicators glowing when the appliance is not switched on is an indication that the live and neutral connections are crossed. That may be for the whole van or just the microwave socket. There will be a reverse polarity indicator somewhere on your Sargent installation (I'm not familiar with the EC500) that will show if its for the whole van.

There could be some sort of earthing/bonding fault at the root of all your problems - are you competent at testing electrical circuits? If not you need to go to a specialist.

You will find the Sargent technical support very helpful. If you list everything that has and is now happening along with details of your installation and contact them, they will give you advice. Their contact details can be found via the link below.

http://sargentshop.co.uk/epages/eshop328964.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/eshop328964/Categories/Support

Peter

Hi Dave,
From your description above I believe you have the very latest power management system that AS are currently fitting. 
As such, the EC500 is deemed to be a "smart charger" (as per owners manual) which monitors both leisure and vehicle batteries and should auto adjust and direct, as necessary,  the charger power to maintain both batteries at an optimal level. 
However, if you have turned off the shutdown button (top LH side of the EC500 PSU) then the only source of charge will be the solar panel which will be to the leisure battery only!! If the dealer is saying NFF then this may be why your are seeing some issues with your vehicle battery (alarm, management system etc. drain).
With this "smart charger" system I am a strong advocate for leaving the vehicle on permanent EHU as the solar panel on its own might struggle to replenish both batteries sufficiently at this time of year. 
With the shutdown button on you should eventually get the toggle switch indicator light up on the ECU 500 panel when it has switched between batteries - in other words don't keep interrogating the EC480 panel.
I find the system works as advertised for me.
Hope this helps, cheers. 

Liam

That's a very useful post, Liam. I'm about to get a new Nuevo which will have that system, and I had intended to leave the vehicle permanently connected to mains when at home - just as my Clubman has been for 17 years, using an Airflow battery conditioner. Your post confirms my view and is reassuring. Thanks.

Hi Dave, apart from you problems I hope you are enjoying your Burford.  Had ours for 10 months now and apart from a few niggles its been great.  I noticed that the battery warning came on if it had been left for some time so now, with the cold weather etc, I keep it hooked up and put the charger on every other day if its not been used.  I do give it a run every week when I can.   See you on your travels.

Morning all, and again thanks for your input.

I've been using the shutdown button to help stop the leisure battery bottoming out and doing this has allowed me to maintain it's charge.  Previously the battery was losing power over just a couple of weeks - queried this with dealer and AS and was told this was to be expected (although I'm still not totally convinced as I'd not had the problem with previous motorhome or caravans).

I think I'll do as most of you suggest and keep it on EHU.  I'll then aim to keep a detailed diary of hiccups as and when they arise to see if I can identify a common denominator (if there is one).

I may then then come to back to you with more info and request for further guidance.

TTFN and many thanks again.

Dave Brown

My Lancashire keeps enough charge in both batteries for about 6 weeks. That is a lot less than my previous 2001 Hymer which had no electronic gizmos but would maintain its charge for 3 months vehicle and rather more for the leisure. But on that, the Electroblock charger was clever enough to charge both batteries at once. I think that it was only the alarm that created any drain when the van was laid up for the winter.

Hi Dave, we travelled from New Zealand and purchased a new Winchcombe June 2014. We spent three great months in both UK and France and then shipped the vehicle back home. We also experienced the same electrical issues as you have experienced. While over there we took it to the dealer and he disconnected the solar panel checking all electrical circuits. They said all was well and no fault found. From that day on everything has been fine and no further battery draining has taken place. A week or so later we were passing the factory so called in for a chat and explained what had happened. We were told that a couple of other vehicles had experienced the same issue and the problem was the way the solar panel had been plugged into the system. By disconnecting the solar to do the check and reconnecting they had fixed the problem without realizing it- may be worth a try. Back home now we can spend the night off power with the leisure battery still holding 96% of charge in the morning.

Cheers

Geoff

Dave,  I have the same electrical system in my Broadway.  My microwave neon comes on when I am connected to EHU and it is reverse polarity, apparently this is normal.  A quick way to check without getting on my hands and knees to look at the panel!!

Dave 'R''

As a matter of interest, as Peter mentioned earlier; does your reverse polarity apply to the whole vehicle (i.e. vehicle entry point mis-wired) or is it just one or more circuits within the Sargent unit.

As you can see from my profile this is just academic interest.............but if we choose to upgrade at some point in the future, we may be forced to inherit one of these 'intelligent' systems...........  

Derek

Dave 'R' wrote:Dave,  I have the same electrical system in my Broadway.  My microwave neon comes on when I am connected to EHU and it is reverse polarity, apparently this is normal.  A quick way to check without getting on my hands and knees to look at the panel!!

My microwave neon comes on when connected to EHU but it goes off if the switch is turned off.  Are you saying that the neon stays on when th emicrowave is powered down - ie no clock display - even 0:00?
If it does that is NOT normal. I would not be certain what happens to mine if the EHU has reverse polarity because I normally travel with the microwave isolator switch on as the neon gives me an indication that I can see through the window if the EHU is working.

PennyandDerek wrote:Dave 'R''

As a matter of interest, as Peter mentioned earlier; does your reverse polarity apply to the whole vehicle (i.e. vehicle entry point mis-wired) or is it just one or more circuits within the Sargent unit.

As you can see from my profile this is just academic interest.............but if we choose to upgrade at some point in the future, we may be forced to inherit one of these 'intelligent' systems...........  

Derek

My unit is wired correctly throughout.  the microwave neon only comes on (reduced brilliance) with the switch in the 'off' position when the EHU supply is reverse polarity, as in many sites in France.  I get over this with a small lead, approx. 1m long, that I have made up myself with one of the terminals reversed so as to give me earthing protection when the supply is reversed - the lead is suitably marked to prevent confusion.  This way the polarity is correct when the supply enters the van.

With a correct polarity EHU, the neon only comes on with full brilliance when the microwave switch is on, but is off when the switch is off.

This is all to do with the way the earthing system on the national grid is configured and the fact that the isolating switches are only single pole.  With reverse polarity at source i.e. the EHU pole, if one of the fuses blows you will still get a full electric shock as the 'negative' line is still live.

[quote="Dave 'R'"]

PennyandDerek wrote:and the fact that the isolating switches are only single pole.  With reverse polarity at source i.e. the EHU pole, if one of the fuses blows you will still get a full electric shock as the 'negative' line is still live.

Until recently I thought this too, but it seems there have been changes in recent years. I had reason to look into this on the Sargent power distribution system in my (two year old) van, and the circuit breakers are now ~not~ single pole. On mine, the MCBs are 1P + N type, which means that both live and neutral are isolated when switched off or tripped (though the overcurrent sensing is on the live pole only).

Visually this type of MCB is almost identical to a single pole one when installed in the panel.

Me too! I read this thread a few days ago and thought nothing of it, as I had no wise words to add.

Last Friday evening (it is now Monday afternoon) we had a power-cut; when it was restored I went around re-setting all the usual suspects but completely forgot my newish outside socket for the van; this is protected by a plug-in RCD which had, of course, tripped. Today I took the van back to Merc for the recall on the timing chain tensioner and when I came home plugged it in a switched on the fridge (we are going away tomorrow). No power! It eventually dawned what had happened.

Checking the panel I noticed that the leisure battery was down to 37%; that is from 19:00 Friday to 16:00 Monday. Nothing is switched on in the van, with the exception of the SmarTrac tracker.

Our van is a two-month old Stanton, I guess exactly the same electrical spec as Dave Brown's, we also have the premium pack, so have the solar charger. Dave, have you made any progress with monitoring the battery drain?

We are going to Bowness in the morning but when I get back on Friday I'll not plug in and will check the indicated percentage day by day.

This is really strange; as in the difference between units I mean. My Auto-Sleeper Winchcombe can be left for a couple of weeks and both batts are still fine. Doesn't have a hab alarm though.

Also on the EC500 unit, if it is sensing reverse polarity a red light comes on when the battery charger is switched on.

Left the van on charge overnight, battery level has only gone up from 37% to 48%- this is not right, is it? I'll keep an eye on it while we are away, we will be hooked up- fortunately.

Pete, on the EC480 it tells you how much DC is going into either hab or Vehicle batts from the charger. Mine goes up into the 20 amp range when the batts are low and I first plug in. What is yours telling you?
John

This dosen't bode well for someone thinking of having a new van but is unable to keep it plugged in to a hook up at home.
pete

Mine has always been fine leaving for several weeks.  You can completely disable all the hab electrics on the EC500 but I havn't needed to. I do always switch off on the  EC480 panel. I  normally go for a day out about every fortnight but have left longer. Not sure why some are having problems? Is it a hab alarm or faulty hab batteries?

Morning Gents,

Still reading with interest but have otherwise been pre-occupied with a few health issues that needed sorting.  It's not only the van that needs to be kept in working order.  Have had the van on EHU for the last couple of weeks but will not get the chance to take it out for a couple more yet.

The microwave neon light issues have been most illuminating.  I'll keep an eye on that one.

Many thanks

Dave Brown

Edited post:

When we had the power cut and all the usual suspects tripped I not only forgot to re-set the RCD protecting my external blue socket on the wall but I did not notice that the "Charger" light on the EC500 was no longer illuminated, I'm wondering if this meant that the charger was switched off and is not quite as idiot proof as I thought. It seems that the batteries had only been topped up by the solar panel for the few days since the power-cut, it was very noticeable how much more charged the leisure battery was when we arrived after a drive from Cheshire to The Lakes, thanks to the alternator. So, having put the switch on, I'm now getting a fluctuating +ve charge from about 0.1 to 0.2 amps into the leisure battery (this input does not seem like a great deal to me) and up to 0.5 amp from the solar panel, even though it is overcast at the moment. Leisure battery capacity is 68%.

Thanks to Jaytee for pointing out what I should have noticed in the first place on the EC480 panel, doh, I got there in the end (also apologies for not responding sooner, no wi-fi.

Learning Point: if you have a power cut make sure that all breakers are re-set.

Presumably some folks keep their vans in storage and they might not know if a power-cut had occurred?

Now, I'm going to monitor the drain on the leisure battery, after it's been fully topped up (if it does fully top up!)..