space for a second leisure battery..

Paulmold wrote:Minniesmum,
You have mentioned that you are going to replace your battery anyway, so there are some slightly higher amp batteries available in the same size casing as your 75amp one.
This one is 86amp [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This one is 90amp [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This one is 88amp [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This one is 85amp [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Just a thought to give you a bit more power.

I think in the short term, buying the above 90 amp battery which appears to be the same physical size, is going to be my first action. My existing battery I believe to be several years old and it's a " no-brand" one.... Another option as a few folk have suggested is a solar panel, but I really need to do my homework on that one as there are so many types available and I'm not sure how effective they are in winter.

Solar panels work in winter on a nice sunny day. With the grey miserable weather we are having right now you need a big panel just to give you a few watts.

For winter time you need your van to be as energy efficient as you can. LED lighting, if you run a TV make sure its a 12v model and not working from an inverter, don't run your heating fan too much etc etc..

To be honest in the depths of winter if you dont have a hook up then a generator is the only real solution. Although thats a whole new topic....

ubuntu1 wrote:Solar panels work in winter on a nice sunny day. With the grey miserable weather we are having right now you need a big panel just to give you a few watts.

For winter time you need your van to be as energy efficient as you can. LED lighting, if you run a TV make sure its a 12v model and not working from an inverter, don't run your heating fan too much etc etc..

To be honest in the depths of winter if you dont have a hook up then a generator is the only real solution. Although thats a whole new topic....

yes the solar panel I think would be a waste of money for winter use. I have a Honda generator ( EU10i ) which I bought second hand for my previous van which didn't have aleisure battery. I do intend to carry it for extended trips away without hook-up. I'm fully aware of the " anti-generator" brigade in the camping world, which is why I only ever use it out in the wilds- never close to other campers.

Hate to throw in another problem, but is the output of the van alternator up to the increased load of an extra battery?

I am not an auto electrician, but through my experience on narrow boats, if we added more batteries we would have required a higher output alternator.

Just a thought

Even on a 'grey day' a solar panel will give quite a bit of juice. It is sat there all day (8 hours?) and even a cloudy day will give a few amps.

In my previous van we usually didn't have hook up (except when we used an oil filed radiator in freezing weather). I had an 85 AH battery which took a hammering in the evening with lights (not LED) and telly, etc (family includes teenage daughter...) but the solar panel (80w) had it back to full charge by breakfast time in the summer sun (4 hours?).

When wild camping do you park up and not move for a few days at a time? You only have to drive a few miles to bring the battery up to full. Its only when static that extra energy would be needed.

I would suggest the first thing to do is minimise consumption by fitting low energy (LED) lights.

Then fit the biggest battery that will go into the space.

Try it out. If you find the leisure battery runs out of juice after 2 or 3 days in the wild then look at solar panels, they're eco friendly, silent, reliable and even work when its raining. You can always take your generator just in case and if not needed leave it behind in future.

matchlessman wrote:Even on a 'grey day' a solar panel will give quite a bit of juice. It is sat there all day (8 hours?) and even a cloudy day will give a few amps.

In my previous van we usually didn't have hook up (except when we used an oil filed radiator in freezing weather). I had an 85 AH battery which took a hammering in the evening with lights (not LED) and telly, etc (family includes teenage daughter...) but the solar panel (80w) had it back to full charge by breakfast time in the summer sun (4 hours?).

When wild camping do you park up and not move for a few days at a time? You only have to drive a few miles to bring the battery up to full. Its only when static that extra energy would be needed.

I would suggest the first thing to do is minimise consumption by fitting low energy (LED) lights.

Then fit the biggest battery that will go into the space.

Try it out. If you find the leisure battery runs out of juice after 2 or 3 days in the wild then look at solar panels, they're eco friendly, silent, reliable and even work when its raining. You can always take your generator just in case and if not needed leave it behind in future.

thanks for this info. I've read mixed reports of the success of solar panels but am willing to listen to folks experiences with them. Do solar panels have to be fitted outside the van ? I'm not happy with doing a mod to the under passenger seat so having 2 batteries is now not an option. As you say I need to get a new leisure battery of the largest capacity that will fit in the current under driver seat box. Meanwhile ill continue to read up on solar panels. I seldom stay anywhere for more than 2 nights whilst wildcamping so yes driving will top it up

Hi Minniesmum,
I dont have experience of solar panels, but I understand that there at least 3 different types some of which work better than others in dull weather so speak to several firms who do these, to find out which sort will suit you best. There are usually several firms advertising in the motorhome magazines, or someone on the forum might like to suggest companies from their own experience. If you still have doubts try a small portable one first off,and add to it if you are satisfied.

Brian2

You've really got to go some to flatten a single 85ah battery in one nights use, if you have 2 (in parallel) i'd say impossible, so, if you have 80w or so

of solar panel, it would recharge a lot of it the next day, either by panel, or if travelling, by the alternator. If any battery/s are well down, the alternator

will whack out a surprising abount of power, I've had flat batteries on cars, totally dead, bump-started & driven around for an hour & the batts be ok

from then on.

Ive been playing with solar for several years (got 4kw on the house) on cars, outbuildings etc. & wouldn't bother with anything less than 40w on the

van, I would think 40 to 100w will be adequate for just about everything, (not silly things like heating, cooking etc.)

I am assuming that virtually nothing is used during the majority of the day, or they may well be problems with the amount of power available.

Minniesmum wrote:

Do solar panels have to be fitted outside the van ? : [/quote]

Yes, they need to be on the roof, where they can get max sunshine.

Whilst I am a strong advocate of solar, if you do drive most days then the engine will top up your battery, so you may not need anything more.

Try a decent battery (I assume your current battery is past its best) and low energy lights and see how many days you actually can last without moving. If you have your generator as stand by you can soon 'top up' if it gets desperate. You may be pleasantly surprised.

If you can manage for 2 nights and you still have some juice left then an 80w panel should allow you to live almost indefinitely in situ, even in the UK.

matchlessman wrote:
Yes, they need to be on the roof, where they can get max sunshine.

Problem is that for most people this means that the panel will lie horizontally, so you can never achieve the panel's rated output, unless you happen to be at the equator! In the central part of the UK you'll be lucky to get 80% of rated output in full sunlight in the middle of the day, and in full winter sun, considerably less than that (maybe only 40%?).

If you want to get anywhere near the panel's rated output it needs to be angled and - ideally - repositioned regularly during the day to track the sun.

In overcast conditions, horizontally mounted is probably as good as any other orientation, but in those conditions you will probably only be getting a few percent of the panel's rated output.

Unfortunately it's quite difficult to get unbiased information on actual panel output (versus rated output) because the results of internet searches on the subject tend to be dominated by companies that want to sell you solar panels - and it's not in their interests to make that information available!

Regards putting anything external on my van, I think is a non-starter. My vehicle lives on the street- no drive- and the area I live in nothing is sacred so it would likely be nicked the first night I parked it outside my house. Its for this reason that I'm dithering getting a bike-rack or back box both of which I'd love to have. But invites opportunist thieves where I live.

Hi Miniesmum,
In view of the advice so far and your comments, I would suggest first get your battery checked as soon as possible, and if neccessary changed for the largest size you can accomadate, then try it out. If you do not have enough capacity, buy a 40 watt solar panel of a type which works well in winter, and has a stand to prop it up to a suitable angle and a long lead, so that you can angle it to the sun during the day and move it round to roughly follow the sun when parked up, this should help.

Brian2

murph wrote: Hi Miniesmum,
In view of the advice so far and your comments, I would suggest first get your battery checked as soon as possible, and if neccessary changed for the largest size you can accomadate, then try it out. If you do not have enough capacity, buy a 40 watt solar panel of a type which works well in winter, and has a stand to prop it up to a suitable angle and a long lead, so that you can angle it to the sun during the day and move it round to roughly follow the sun when parked up, this should help.

Brian2

agree on the battery-thanks. I intend to go for new. As for the solar panel- if itks on my van roof how do I get to it ? May be a silly question but I've no ladders and a fear of heights ! Also can the panel be removed overnight as it would be stolen otherwise.

Minniesmum wrote:Thanks so much for sharing your set-up ! I had the guy at my local caravan shop look at my space yesterday. He has an AS VW early one think a T25. He showed me his layout. It was very different. Not only could he fit one larger battery but 2 and under the drivers seat. He said for me to be able to increase battery size or add a second, would involve major mods to the under seat areas. I believe him as his interests would be to sell me another battery !

I fitted a second leisure battery in the compartment under the sofa containing the Truma boiler & the Eberspacher heater, I raised it on 1 1/2 inch wood battens so as not to foul the pipework & strapped it to the side wall to secure it. I ran heavy cables with fuses to the battery under the driver's seat.

A simple operation & you can keep the safe.

I was refering to a freestanding panel (ref the long lead) which would stand on the groud alongside the van rather than a fixed panel, this could of course be stowed inside the van or even in the house if you felt this was safer when not in use.

Brian2

Thanks everyone again for all the suggestions and sharing your set-ups. A start will be a new leisure battery likely a 90 amp one. Then will take things from there

Its certainly true that you only get a percentage of the potential panel output when it lies flat, but from personal experience, that is sufficient to keep the battery topped up. An 80w panel running at 25% efficiency still gives 20w. Multiply by the hours of daylight and your leisure battery should be full before lights are required. I have managed weeks without hookup, with an number of 'non driving' days in the mix.

I wouldn't go for a 'tilting' unit. Definitely more efficient but you would need to position the van so it pointed at the sun, raise the panel then move the van through the day to track the sun (and remember to lower it before driving). Far easier, more secure and no intervention required to just get a bigger panel and keep it flat.

As far as security is concerned, a panel becomes a permanent fixture. They are 'glued and screwed' to the roof and are pretty difficult to remove (they have to withstand 100mph plus winds - driving at 70 into a 30mph headwind potentially?). They are also high up, out of sight so the lowlife will not know its there, and having stood on my roof to clean it, I wouldn't want to be up there trying to wrestle off a heavy cumbersome panel in the dark. The value of a second hand panel with a limited market (motorhomes, boats) would be low.

As I said earlier, you may not need even a panel if you aren't static for many days, however if you are then you should find 80w is more than sufficient to cover all your needs and maybe even a 40w would suffice. A trial to see how long you can last without external energy (including driving) will give an indication of how much extra you need to top up.

I have a 1998 symphony on a boxer and two 85 amp hrs go under the drivers seat. bit fiddly to change, took me an hour. Very tight fit. BUSBY

Hi folks,
a really interesting thread and I have been following it with interest.

Friday a decided to check out my leisure battery before the season starts, (if it ever does)

My vehicle a Symbol had a "habitation" check in November so all should be fine, yes, er well NO, I slid the seat forward and to my horror the battery was insecure and the negative battery terminal was covered in corrosion and had no information about amp hour on it.

Taking the Bull by the horns I bought a new 110 amp hour battery after measuring the hole under the drivers seat and low and behold it fitted, but I had to modify the battery box. Out came the grinder and I removed the two studs and the restraining battery lip and treated the tray. I then removed the relay and popped the battery in and the pushed it back under the lip at the back of the seat mount, refitted the relay and made a new clamp for the front to secure the battery.

One word of WARNING, make surer the battery terminals don't touch the seat as you slide it back as on my "Unipart battery they are only an inch away, Make sure you use a COVER over the POSITIVE, RED terminal to avoid this.

Hope this may help some people in the same position as me, looking into solar panels when I get some dosh!

Best regards, Mike

mikemelson wrote:

Minniesmum wrote:Thanks so much for sharing your set-up ! I had the guy at my local caravan shop look at my space yesterday. He has an AS VW early one think a T25. He showed me his layout. It was very different. Not only could he fit one larger battery but 2 and under the drivers seat. He said for me to be able to increase battery size or add a second, would involve major mods to the under seat areas. I believe him as his interests would be to sell me another battery !

I fitted a second leisure battery in the compartment under the sofa containing the Truma boiler & the Eberspacher heater, I raised it on 1 1/2 inch wood battens so as not to foul the pipework & strapped it to the side wall to secure it. I ran heavy cables with fuses to the battery under the driver's seat.

A simple operation & you can keep the safe.

I have just read this post and see that you say, you have run heavy duty cable with fuses, but it seems from the pic that you have a heavy cable connected into a cable with a much smaller cross sectional area that has the fuse holder in it.

This means you have reduced the current carrying capacity to that of the smallest cable, making the heavy duty cable pointless. You need to maintain the same size cable throughout.

SJR

SJR wrote:

mikemelson wrote:

Minniesmum wrote:Thanks so much for sharing your set-up ! I had the guy at my local caravan shop look at my space yesterday. He has an AS VW early one think a T25. He showed me his layout. It was very different. Not only could he fit one larger battery but 2 and under the drivers seat. He said for me to be able to increase battery size or add a second, would involve major mods to the under seat areas. I believe him as his interests would be to sell me another battery !

I fitted a second leisure battery in the compartment under the sofa containing the Truma boiler & the Eberspacher heater, I raised it on 1 1/2 inch wood battens so as not to foul the pipework & strapped it to the side wall to secure it. I ran heavy cables with fuses to the battery under the driver's seat.

A simple operation & you can keep the safe.

I have just read this post and see that you say, you have run heavy duty cable with fuses, but it seems from the pic that you have a heavy cable connected into a cable with a much smaller cross sectional area that has the fuse holder in it.

This means you have reduced the current carrying capacity to that of the smallest cable, making the heavy duty cable pointless. You need to maintain the same size cable throughout.

SJR

Hi,
I've only just read your reply. These were the fuses attached to a short length of cable recommended by the electrical engineers.

Can you get fuses attached to thicker cable? I'm not sure.

This may be of use?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

PB

mikemelson wrote:These were the fuses attached to a short length of cable recommended by the electrical engineers.

SJR is right in theory, but the fact that the thinner wires are short means that any voltage drop will be minimal - it certainly doesn't make pointless the thick wire (presumably) running to the vehicle electrics. Visibly the existing wires look to be thick enough not to represent a problem with overheating, provided you have a sensible fuse in place. Personally, I wouldn't worry about replacing it.

-mojo- wrote:

mikemelson wrote:These were the fuses attached to a short length of cable recommended by the electrical engineers.

SJR is right in theory, but the fact that the thinner wires are short means that any voltage drop will be minimal - it certainly doesn't make pointless the thick wire (presumably) running to the vehicle electrics. Visibly the existing wires look to be thick enough not to represent a problem with overheating, provided you have a sensible fuse in place. Personally, I wouldn't worry about replacing it.

The current carrying capacity of the cable is reduced by way of the smaller cross sectional area of the cable with the blade fuse. I dont know what the expected load is and if the larger cable is over rated, but what ever way you look at it you should keep cable size consistant.

I think it does make the larger cable pointless, as you might just as well have run the entire length in the smaller cable.

SJR

SJR wrote:
I think it does make the larger cable pointless, as you might just as well have run the entire length in the smaller cable.

As I said earlier, the problem here is not going to be one of overheating - the key problem (if one exists) in this type of installation is voltage drop on a long(ish) run of cable. The long part in large diameter cable keeps the voltage drop to a minimum, and a short length of thinner cable will only have a minimal additional effect, precisely because it is short.

Despite what you suggest, the short length of thinner cable does not somehow negate the benefits of the bigger cable - when you think about it, the inline fuse itself is just a very thin bit of wire, but that does not make the thickness of the rest of the wire pointless!

Please believe me - this is not some random opinion of mine. I do actually understand the subject.